Interference over 2 club opening

[kingsman]

Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.

Straightforward question.

My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.

My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else? My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.

Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round. Apart from no
trump rebids by opener, which define point count.

Bernard Schneider

[TWOferBRIDGE]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

1) You are correct.
DBL is the weakest action.

2) After 2H! ( bust), Opener "places" the contract, since you
will be passing most anything....
But you may place him in game if he happens to hit your
long suit. 2C - 2H!, 2S - 4S.

[Gordon Rainsford]

Post by TWOferBRIDGE

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else? My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round. Apart from no
trump rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

1) You are correct.
DBL is the weakest action.

That's one way to play it. Another is to play takeout doubles.

Post by TWOferBRIDGE
2) After 2H! ( bust), Opener "places" the contract, since you
will be passing most anything....
But you may place him in game if he happens to hit your
long suit. 2C - 2H!, 2S - 4S.

That's not how anyone I know plays it: 2C is forcing to game unless the
auction is 2C-2H-2NT. The most important thing about starting with a
forcing bid is to get the chance to bid your hand out.

Imagine something like:

AKxxx
AKxxx
AK
x

x
xxxxx
xxx
xxxx

You would be playing in 2S while 6H is reasonable.

[TWOferBRIDGE]

Post by Gordon Rainsford

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

1)  You are correct.
     DBL is the weakest action.

That's one way to play it. Another is to play takeout doubles.

2) After 2H! ( bust), Opener "places" the contract, since you
    will be passing most anything....
    But you may place him in game if he happens to hit your
    long suit.   2C - 2H!, 2S - 4S.

That's not how anyone I know plays it: 2C is forcing to game unless the
auction is 2C-2H-2NT. The most important thing about starting with a
forcing bid is to get the chance to bid your hand out.
AKxxx
AKxxx
AK
x
x
xxxxx
xxx
xxxx
You would be playing in 2S while 6H is reasonable.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
I think I have to "backpeddle".

2) You can stop below game but it is left up to Opener.
Responder uses his 2nd call to describe distribution.
After this next bid, Opener will place in game or not.

[Nick France]

Post by Gordon Rainsford

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

1)  You are correct.
     DBL is the weakest action.

That's one way to play it. Another is to play takeout doubles.

2) After 2H! ( bust), Opener "places" the contract, since you
    will be passing most anything....
    But you may place him in game if he happens to hit your
    long suit.   2C - 2H!, 2S - 4S.

That's not how anyone I know plays it: 2C is forcing to game unless the
auction is 2C-2H-2NT. The most important thing about starting with a
forcing bid is to get the chance to bid your hand out.
AKxxx
AKxxx
AK
x
x
xxxxx
xxx
xxxx
You would be playing in 2S while 6H is reasonable.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Let's imagine something like

AKQx
AKxxxx
x
AK

and partner has

xxxxx
x
xxx
xxxx

Just what is responder suppose to do after

2C 2H (double negative)
3H

Seems like any bid by responder forces to game, so why show a double
negative that raises the level too high. Actually in this sequence,
the opener is just going to jump to 4H making sure of game but missing
the slam.

This is just one example of problems faced by using 2H as a double
negative. If you need to use a double negaitve then the cheapest
minor seems better and it is hard to find an example where 2H is
superior to this unless you allow for

2C 2H
2S

can be passed.

Nick France

[TWOferBRIDGE]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

1)  You are correct.
     DBL is the weakest action.
2) After 2H! ( bust), Opener "places" the contract, since you
    will be passing most anything....
    But you may place him in game if he happens to hit your
    long suit.   2C - 2H!, 2S - 4S.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

1) I found a simple set of rules for a direct interference overcall
when 2H! normally
is the immediate negative: 2C - ( 2any ) - ??

New suit = A strong suit (two of the top three honors, usually
with 6+ cards).

Cuebid = Positive response, 4-4-4-1 distribution, singleton in
the overcalled suit.

Pass = Any other semi-positive hand (two queens or better).

Double = Immediate double-negative (less than two queens).
( ie the weakest action )


2) Karen Walker ( from her prairienet.org bridge reference site )
apparently
was a contributor to this forum years ago. "Googling" THIS group
for this topic,
I found a number of her posts regarding the 2C open structure.

One comment ( for no interference ) from approx 10 YEARS AGO
was :
2C - 2D ( positive, waiting )
3S-jump = as we know sets trump and demands cheapest cuebid

whereas:
2C - 2H! ( immediate negative)
3S -jump = INVITATIONAL only

Don

[alvin]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, �that a bid of 2
hearts is a �double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. �This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while �double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else? �My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question. �Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round. �Apart from no
trump �rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

Bernard:

Happy New Yesr to you too.

Your treatment is uncommon. It does has some value, as defining that
responder DOES NOT have a double negative on the first round is often
a good idea. Opener knows from a 2D response that his minimum rebid
will force to game; for example, your Kokish sequence is then enhanced
by the fact that responder has some values for 2C - 2D; 2H - 2S; 2NT,
and you can define a safety level of say, 4NT, for the sequence.
However, your approach makes it impossible - after the double negative
- for opener to show a natural 2H rebid by rebidding 2H.

After 2C - 2H; I would not want opener's minimum suit rebid, such as
2S, to be passable. If responder passes on an apparent misfit, opener
would be unable to show a second suit with which responder fits much
better.

After an overcall of 2C, how should you play? It is a more or less
widespead treatment for responder's double to suggest penalty by
showing some length in the overcall suit but also deny honor card
values, relying on opener's 2C opening for the defense needed to
defeat the contract. After 2C - (2S), responder might double with S
xxxx H xx D Qxx C xxxx. Using this approach, a pass does show some
limited honor values; possibly 4-7 HCP (enough to force to game
opposite a minimum 2C opener).

"My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor."

True, and (1) not merely in a 2C auction; and (2) largely a good thing
too. It is vital that a partnership have an understanding of whether a
penalty-oriented double can show only values in the opponent's suit
(an extremely rare holding) or whether a certain amount of
transferable values can also be shown. Put another way, just how
offensive are the values for a defensive call? Also - Is the doubler's
partner expected to hold any defensive values (length, strength in the
opponent's suit) to pass? Or is he to pull without any such cards
(possibly a void or singleton in the opponent's suit) to try for a
higher-scoring contract elsewhere?

Alvin P. Bluthman
***@aol.com

[BBO expert]

Post by alvin
Your treatment is uncommon.

No, it isn't. It's straight from Audrey Grant.

[alvin]

Post by alvin
Your treatment is uncommon.

No, it isn't. �It's straight from Audrey Grant.

I thought that responder's pass here (2C - (2S) - Pass) showing
weakness with a double showing some defensive values (2C - (2S) - Dbl)
- penalty double, not negative - is the more widely used approach,
I'll happily stand corrected on this, especially as Bernard's approach
is probably the better of the two (though it may not be the best
available). .

However, I cannot believe that the 2C - (P) - 2H double negative is at
all widely used. Nor that Audrey Grant recommends the latter for her
readership of beginners. Are you sure about this, or were you
addressing the meaning of a double in the contested auction?

Alvin P. Bluthman
***@aol.com.

[BBO expert]

Post by alvin

Post by alvin
Your treatment is uncommon.

No, it isn't. ï¿œIt's straight from Audrey Grant.

I thought that responder's pass here (2C - (2S) - Pass) showing
weakness with a double showing some defensive values (2C - (2S) - Dbl)
- penalty double, not negative - is the more widely used approach,
I'll happily stand corrected on this, especially as Bernard's approach
is probably the better of the two (though it may not be the best
available). .
However, I cannot believe that the 2C - (P) - 2H double negative is at
all widely used. Nor that Audrey Grant recommends the latter for her
readership of beginners.

Grant doesn't only teach beginners.

[Nick France]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

While doubling to show a bust seems common (and normal) I have never
liked it. I like a double to show about 4-8 points and something in
the suit being doubled. With less you pass. With more you bid on as
slam is likely and you don't want to waste time doubling.

One reason I don't like a double to show a bust is another standard
practice that I do use. If it goes 2C-(ANY)-P-P; a double by the 2C
bidder shows a hand that was going to 2NT. Now if responder is weak
he can pass if he likes.

As for your second question, besides making the weak hand play the
hand if the suit is hearts, it has the second problem that you notice
in your post, Opener must make a final decision on the contract with
no information at all about partner's hand. Then again the 2H
negative bid seems to be gaining in popularity so I seem to be
fighting against the trend.

Nick France

[BBO expert]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?

That's exactly as I learned it. Double with a weak hand because opener can
usually defeat anything they bid.

Post by kingsman
Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.

No. As I was taught, 2H promises _one more bid_.

[Travis Crump]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.

If opener plans to rebid 2N, the continuations are relatively straight
forward so little to nothing is gained[at the price of a bid]. It
should also be noted that 'at least enough to make a game' is roughly a
queen or a fit and a roughing value[if you need an ace to make game open
at the one level, partner will almost never pass with an ace]. Lacking
both of those is actually relatively uncommon[You were a little vague on
your criteria, I've seen beginners play this and bid 2H on an ace cause
its 0-4; but I'm sure you'd never do that :)]. As others have pointed
out the immediate double negative doesn't seem to gain you all that much
when opener has a suit oriented hand; you should work more on not
opening 2C understrength then trying to get out in a partscore after
opening 2C.

Travis

[Andrew]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  

When RHO has interfered, the most important goal is to collect a plus
score. Sometimes gearing oure bidding approach to accomplishing that
goal means we acore less than the maximum on a given hand (e.g., we
play a slam in game, or we play 3NT instead of collecting +800 on
defense), but that's OK because in the long run, we will maximize our
score by collecting the most pluses.

So what information does partner need in order to get the defend/
declare decision right? Opener needs to know whether responder's hand
contains a smattering of offense. There is a huge difference between
declaring with 23 HCP opposite 4-5 HCP and 23 HCP opposite 0.

So responder's first priority is communication whether or not he has a
few cards outside of the overcalled suit. Responder should double
whenever he is broke, or whenever his values are primarily in spades
and hence have little offensive value:
* QJxx, xxx, xxx, xxx
* xxx, xxx, xxx, xxxx
* xxx, Qxx, xxx, xxxx
* KJxxx, xx, xxx, xxx

Pass should suggest 4-5 points that will contribute to the play if we
play in a suit.
* xx, Kxxx, Qxxx, xxx
* xxx, Qxxx, JTxx, QJx

Using this method, some hands with good defense will be forced to bid.
After 2C-3S)-?
* AT9x, Kxx, Jxx, xxxx = bid 3NT. If you double, partner will never
suspect you have decent offense and might make a slam.



One other interesting point. A cuebid of the opponent's suit by
responder should be a natural bid. 2C-(2S)-3S shows a spade suit and
suggests the 2S call was psychic (the opponents are about to run to
their suit anyway, so you might as well let partner know now that you
have real spades).

Post by kingsman
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.

Depends on how strong your opening 2C is. If 3X is NF you will pick up
a few more plus scores, but you might lose a game when opener has a 2-
suited (or semi-2-suited) hand and responder has a fit for the second
suit.

If you are tend to open 1 of a suit on marginal 2C opener's then play
3X as forcing. If you like to limit 1X by opening 2C more frequently,
then its better to play those bids as NF.


Andrew

[Lorne]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response.

Correct in my view. Dble says you are so weak game might not be on despite
the 2C opener so opener can pass for penalties.

Post by kingsman
Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids,

You will seldom want to defend at the 2 level if game is certain as it will
be after the 2D response, so no.

Post by kingsman
or
to do something else? My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.

T/O is the only other meaning worth looking at.

Post by kingsman
Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round. Apart from no
trump rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

Only 2N can be passed.

[Eric Leong]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.

I like the idea of double showing weakness. Usually, opener will have
a strong balanced 22 hcp hand so he can pass the double for penalties.
Otherwise, partner might have to bid 2NT which he would be less likely
to want to play there.

Post by kingsman
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.

What if opener wants to find the best game or still search for a slam?
Opener is still unlimited and as long as he bids a new suit responder
still has to keep the bidding open.
For example give partner: S AKxxxxx H AKxxx D A C -.
Wouldn't you want to be in a spade grand if partner as a few spades
and short hearts or the heart queen?
Also, wouldn't you want to be in a heart grand if partner has long
hearts and short spades?

Eric Leong

Post by kingsman
Bernard Schneider

[kingsman]

Post by Eric Leong

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening,  that a bid of 2
hearts is a  double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.  This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while  double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else?  My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.

I like the idea of double showing weakness. Usually, opener will have
a strong balanced 22 hcp hand so he can pass the double for penalties.
Otherwise, partner might have to bid 2NT which he would be less likely
to want to play there.

Post by kingsman
Second question.  Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.  Apart from no
trump  rebids by opener, which define point count.

What if opener wants to find the best game or still search for a slam?
Opener is still unlimited and as long as he bids a new suit responder
still has to keep the bidding open.
For example give partner: S AKxxxxx   H AKxxx   D A   C -.
Wouldn't you want to be in a spade grand if partner as a few spades
and short hearts or the heart queen?
Also, wouldn't you want to be in a heart grand if partner has long
hearts and short spades?
Eric Leong

Post by kingsman
Bernard Schneider

Thanks to all and hope that you all had a safe New Year's Eve.

I found the discussion very helpful. I believe that the main
advantage of the double negative 2 hearts is not to allow the
partnership to stop at a nine-trick major suit contract. The
likelihood that opener can make exactly nine tricks, and that
responder has a true value-foresaken yarborough ( what are the odds?)
is much too rare to make it a priority to address bidding-wise.
Inevitably responder has stray values, if only three-card support, or
a stray queen, or the like, that one should just go ahead and take
one's chances in game. If one is not playing a strong club system,
plus relays, one should pay off to the occassional down one. Rather,
it seems to me, the great advantage of the double negative is when
opener has game in hand and looking toward slam, if partner has
anything useful; to at least set some framework for --and slow down--
the ensuing auction.

Long story short, even after a 2 heart response, then except if opener
rebids 2 no trump, the partnership is committed to game. Possible
exception: 2 clubs 2 hearts
3 diamonds burp
4 diamonds

The point that people have made about opener having a two suiter is
particularly convincing. Odds are that, even opposite a yarborough,
but including 3-2 in opener's suits, game should have some play.

Bernard Schneider

[Larry]

Well, there is another approach to strong 2C (with 8 or more tricks) &
2H double negative response:

Paradox Major Responses:

2C - 2H = No A or K or QQ(Q?) and no ruffing trick is hearts is
trumps.
2C - 2S = No A or K or QQ(Q?) and a ruffing trick if H is trumps.

http://www.chrisryall.net/bridge/two/clubs.htm#responses

AKxxx
AKxxx
AK
x
x
xxxxx
xxx
xxxx

Thus, the bidding: 2C - 2S - 4H - ?

Larry

[a***@hotmail.com]

Post by kingsman
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Straightforward question.
My wife and I play, in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative,

As Meckstroth said of this use of 2H, 'the last thing opener needs to
know after 2C is that you're broke.'

regards
axman

Post by kingsman
while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening. This seems to be a non uncommon treatment nowadays.
Other responses, when they do come up, are standard value and length
showing in the suit bid. We also play Kokish.
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response. Is there any reason to reverse the meaning of these bids, or
to do something else? My sense is that the standard meaning of the
double to show tricks in the suit overcalled, and nothing on the
outside, has passed from favor.
Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round. Apart from no
trump rebids by opener, which define point count.
Bernard Schneider

[t***@att.net]

I've used a slightly different response structure. After an overcall
of 2C, a pass by resonder is "negative" (or at least, it shows nothing
to say); a cue bid shows control (Ace or Void) and suggests slam going
values (worth more than a penalty). A Notrump bid shows the King and
suggests slam going values. Suit bids are game forcing and natural.
Double is penalty oriented.

I've also used (based on various people's suggetons) a somewhat
natural approach after a 2C bid. 2D is the catchall nothing bid
(negative usually); 2H and 2S show a 4+card good suit (KJxx or better)
and 7+HCP and 1QT at least; 3C and 3D show 5+card good suits (QJxxx or
better) with 8+HCP and 1 and 1/2 QT. (Quick Tricks are more limited
than for an opening; A=1, Kx=1/2, AQ=1 1/2 if bidding the suit else 1,
KQ = 1 if bidding the suit, else 1/.2). 2NT shows at least 8HCP
scattered and some reason to be declarer in Notrump. The modified QT
table makes it easier for opener to pinpoint controls early. 3NT shows
a no-loser suit and no outside Ace or Void; 3H and 3S show 7 or 8 card
suits in Clubs and Diamonds respectively, 1 loser, no outside Ace or
King; 4C and 4D show the the same for Heart and Spades. The positive
responses do raise the bidding level rather quickly but at least the
combinded hands should be strong enough to bid game and probably slam.
I used these responses within a system that had Acol 2H and 2S bids so
that the 2C was really strong. (Also a 21-22HCP 2NT opening.)

I don't know if this is the "best" treatment, but it allows early
detection of fits. One problem with using 2C is that lots of space is
consumed without any details (other than holding a big hand) being
exchanged. Of course, one must also worry about right-siding
contracts. My suggested responses don't to that as well as they could
which explains the rather high strength requirements.

[Steve Willner]

Post by kingsman
in response to a 2 club opening, that a bid of 2
hearts is a double negative, while 2 diamonds promises some ( perhaps
very) minimal values, but at least enough to make a game opposite a
strong opening.

Perfectly reasonable structure, although "Paradox" is probably better.

Assign specialized meanings to 2NT and higher, but you probably do that
already. (I suggest 2NT = 4+ controls, 3suit = six+ card suit with two
of top three honors but not semi-solid, 4suit = semi-solid suit, 3NT =
unspecified solid suit. Semi-solid means one loser facing a singleton,
solid means no losers facing a singleton. Of course 4M either has to
deny outside controls or -- better -- be forcing.)

Post by kingsman
My question, is what to do when the opponents interfere, such as by
making a 2 spade overcall.
KISS, we thought that a pass would show the equivalent of a 2 diamond
response, while double would show the equivalent of a 2 heart
response.

That looks like the right way round to me. Opener will usually pass the
double if balanced.

Post by kingsman
Second question. Assuming no interference, and a double-negative 2
heart response, can opener's next bid be passed (he has to bid the
limit of his hand) or is it forcing for one round.

If you want both, use 2S as a puppet to 2NT. Puppet then bid is
forcing, while a direct bid on the three-level is passable. That
precludes playing 2S, but you shouldn't miss that much, especially if
playing Paradox. There are other ways you can use the puppet principle,
but this is probably simplest and good enough for what will be a rare
situation.