Bid after a 3D Bergen Raise?

[P***@yahoo.com]

Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable

Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.

I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?

S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I assume you are playing 1/2 round cues since you bid 3S so
partner seems to have neither A nor K of clubs so the 5 level
looks safe.
If he has one of the club AK, then you need to have a chat with him.

doug

[Player]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

If you assume that you will always play a 5-4 in a suit contract instead of 3NT, you also have the 3NT bid. After 3S pd can bid 3NT to show Serious interest in slam. Now you bid 4C to show a C control. If pd is still interested he bids 4D last train and off you go.

[Lorne Anderson]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

Pass for me. Partner should not bid 4H with 2 aces. If he has the
spade + heart aces I can see some may find the auction difficult but a
little thought will conclude that 3N should now show slam interest
without a club or diamond control - you obvously do not want to play 3N
when you have a 9 card heart fit and a partner interested in a heart slam.

[P***@yahoo.com]

Post by Lorne Anderson

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

Pass for me. Partner should not bid 4H with 2 aces. If he has the
spade + heart aces I can see some may find the auction difficult but a
little thought will conclude that 3N should now show slam interest
without a club or diamond control - you obvously do not want to play 3N
when you have a 9 card heart fit and a partner interested in a heart slam.

Excellent thought process!

[p***@infi.net]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

3S is an obvious slam try, and partner should certainly not retreat to 4H with two Aces. Pass. Since you posted this, I assume he actually had two Aces. Just ask "What did you think I was looking for?" You can't force your partner to bid sensibly.

[P***@yahoo.com]

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

3S is an obvious slam try, and partner should certainly not retreat to 4H with two Aces. Pass. Since you posted this, I assume he actually had two Aces. Just ask "What did you think I was looking for?" You can't force your partner to bid sensibly.

You got it right, Paul, he had the SA and HA and I passed his 4H bid with a cold slam. <frown>

[Player]

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by p***@infi.net

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

3S is an obvious slam try, and partner should certainly not retreat to 4H with two Aces. Pass. Since you posted this, I assume he actually had two Aces. Just ask "What did you think I was looking for?" You can't force your partner to bid sensibly.

You got it right, Paul, he had the SA and HA and I passed his 4H bid with a cold slam. <frown>

You need to get a new partner. What did he think you wanted, as pointed out by every single poster here? This partner clearly has no aptitude for the game whatsoever.

[jogs]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.

Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

[P***@yahoo.com]

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.
Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

You got it reversed, jogs...nobody plays 3C as a limit raise, for the following reason:

1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

[jogs]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

It always comes back to points schmoints. You give information to two defenders and only to one partner. Intentive opponents defend better when you pinpoint declarer's HCP. One needs to give partner info on another parameter to increase chances for game significantly. I'm not a fan of inviting. Bid game or return to 3 of the major. Let opponents guess.

[Ronald]

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points.
The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where
if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game,
otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three
level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's
HCP range within two points.

It always comes back to points schmoints. You give information to two
defenders and only to one partner. Intentive opponents defend better when
you pinpoint declarer's HCP. One needs to give partner info on another
parameter to increase chances for game significantly. I'm not a fan of
inviting. Bid game or return to 3 of the major. Let opponents guess.

Agreed! I play mini-splinters. It is more important to know about wasted
values then HCP (you don't really mean just HCP, do you?) within 2 points.
It's hard to grasp that the same person invented "points schmoints" and
Bergen raises.

[f***@googlemail.com]

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.
Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

"Nobody" is a severe overbid.
The vast majority of people here who play 3C and 3D as 4-card raises, play 3C as a limit raise and 3D as a mixed raise. The logic is that you are more likely to have slam on opposite a limit raise than opposite a mixed raise, so you should give yourself more space on that auction. (This is also consistent with 2NT, 3C, and 3D being in descending order of strength.)

I am sure that where you play you are correct that 3C is always the weaker raise, but your argument doesn't really hold up: a mixed raise is typically 6-9 or so, and a limit raise 9-12. Both the same spread (9-counts up- or downgrade).

[P***@yahoo.com]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.
Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

"Nobody" is a severe overbid.
The vast majority of people here who play 3C and 3D as 4-card raises, play 3C as a limit raise and 3D as a mixed raise. The logic is that you are more likely to have slam on opposite a limit raise than opposite a mixed raise, so you should give yourself more space on that auction. (This is also consistent with 2NT, 3C, and 3D being in descending order of strength.)
I am sure that where you play you are correct that 3C is always the weaker raise, but your argument doesn't really hold up: a mixed raise is typically 6-9 or so, and a limit raise 9-12. Both the same spread (9-counts up- or downgrade).

Thanks for your clarification. Upon further digging, I find that the treatment you described is called "Reverse Bergen raises" and is indeed popular now days; so I stand corrected.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.
Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

"Nobody" is a severe overbid.
The vast majority of people here who play 3C and 3D as 4-card raises, play 3C as a limit raise and 3D as a mixed raise. The logic is that you are more likely to have slam on opposite a limit raise than opposite a mixed raise, so you should give yourself more space on that auction. (This is also consistent with 2NT, 3C, and 3D being in descending order of strength.)
I am sure that where you play you are correct that 3C is always the weaker raise, but your argument doesn't really hold up: a mixed raise is typically 6-9 or so, and a limit raise 9-12. Both the same spread (9-counts up- or downgrade).

Most of the people I have encountered recently (meaning 2014/15 and in the US) play 3C as the weaker of the two. I have found that playing 3C as the wider range is more important than which is weaker and which is stronger. There is a 3D artificial range ask available over 3C. When the trump suit is Hearts, there is nothing over 3D.

Right now, if I had any living partners, we would be playing 3C is 8 to 11 and 3D is 6 or 7. However, playing 3C as 6 to 9 and 3D as 10 or 11 worked fine when we did it. We count for distribution, so the upgrading or downgrading of a nine-count is mostly already done when we decide it is nine.

[p***@infi.net]

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by f***@googlemail.com

Post by P***@yahoo.com

Post by jogs

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

I thought most ppl played 3C as limit raise, and 3D as weak raise.
Then the auction would go: 1S-3C, 3D-3S, etc
Slam auctions can start at a lower level.

1S-3C is a weak Bergen raise showing four card support and 6-9 points. The 6-9 point range is further bifurcated by opener rebidding 3D, where if the responder's point count is 8-9 points, he would jump to game, otherwise with 6-7 points he would bid the agreed suit at the three level. Effectively, Bergen raises allow opener to determine responder's HCP range within two points.

"Nobody" is a severe overbid.
The vast majority of people here who play 3C and 3D as 4-card raises, play 3C as a limit raise and 3D as a mixed raise. The logic is that you are more likely to have slam on opposite a limit raise than opposite a mixed raise, so you should give yourself more space on that auction. (This is also consistent with 2NT, 3C, and 3D being in descending order of strength.)
I am sure that where you play you are correct that 3C is always the weaker raise, but your argument doesn't really hold up: a mixed raise is typically 6-9 or so, and a limit raise 9-12. Both the same spread (9-counts up- or downgrade).

Most of the people I have encountered recently (meaning 2014/15 and in the US) play 3C as the weaker of the two. I have found that playing 3C as the wider range is more important than which is weaker and which is stronger. There is a 3D artificial range ask available over 3C. When the trump suit is Hearts, there is nothing over 3D.
Right now, if I had any living partners, we would be playing 3C is 8 to 11 and 3D is 6 or 7. However, playing 3C as 6 to 9 and 3D as 10 or 11 worked fine when we did it. We count for distribution, so the upgrading or downgrading of a nine-count is mostly already done when we decide it is nine.

I like to include 10-12 splinters in the 3D range; the assumption is you will always bid game with 10 hcp, four trumps and a (small) singleton, so you raise a signoff to game. Of course 3NT over 3D asks for a singleton.

[KWSchneider]

I like to include 10-12 splinters in the 3D range; the assumption is you wi=
ll always bid game with 10 hcp, four trumps and a (small) singleton, so you=
raise a signoff to game. Of course 3NT over 3D asks for a singleton.

That would be over a 1S opening. Over a 1H opening, 3S asks for a singleton.

Kurt

[p***@infi.net]

Post by KWSchneider

I like to include 10-12 splinters in the 3D range; the assumption is you wi=
ll always bid game with 10 hcp, four trumps and a (small) singleton, so you=
raise a signoff to game. Of course 3NT over 3D asks for a singleton.

That would be over a 1S opening. Over a 1H opening, 3S asks for a singleton.

Right.

[Steve Willner]

Post by Will in New Haven
I have found that playing 3C as the wider range is more important
than which is weaker and which is stronger. There is a 3D artificial
range ask available over 3C. When the trump suit is Hearts, there is
nothing over 3D.

This is the key point: the 3C bid should have about twice the range of
3D. That lets you divide responder's constructive through invitational
range into thirds. Come to think of it, I wonder whether there's merit
in making 3C split-range: either the weakest or the strongest third of
the combined range with 3D showing the middle third. It's probably not
a big advantage, though, even if the idea has theoretical merit.

You can, of course, multiplex some game-forcing types -- perhaps void
splinters for one -- into the 3m bids. That can be helpful when slam is
in the picture but will be worse if opponents compete.

[Bruce Evans]

Post by Steve Willner

Post by Will in New Haven
I have found that playing 3C as the wider range is more important
than which is weaker and which is stronger. There is a 3D artificial
range ask available over 3C. When the trump suit is Hearts, there is
nothing over 3D.

This is the key point: the 3C bid should have about twice the range of
3D. That lets you divide responder's constructive through invitational
range into thirds. Come to think of it, I wonder whether there's merit
in making 3C split-range: either the weakest or the strongest third of
the combined range with 3D showing the middle third. It's probably not
a big advantage, though, even if the idea has theoretical merit.
You can, of course, multiplex some game-forcing types -- perhaps void
splinters for one -- into the 3m bids. That can be helpful when slam is
in the picture but will be worse if opponents compete.

I don't like the wide-ranging raises. They are subject to interference and
complicate and give more information to the opponents.

Perhaps the worst is a non-Jacoby 2NT showing limit raise or better
with almost any shape (but 4+ card support). The fit and point range
tells the opponents to interfere, and you often won't know when to
double (this takes detailed agreements and hands suitable for applying
them). If you don't double often, then the opponents win by bidding
without even looking at their hands. Their main losing case is when
you don't have game but can double.

But if you want a really wide range, you could try 3C or even 2NT
showing 5-14 points not game forcing (and 4+ card support). More
practically, 7-12. There isn't space to show much about the exact
range or shape below 3M, but I think the loss is more from opener
usually having to ask just in case responder is upper range so that
there might be game.

Bruce

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Steve Willner

Post by Will in New Haven
I have found that playing 3C as the wider range is more important
than which is weaker and which is stronger. There is a 3D artificial
range ask available over 3C. When the trump suit is Hearts, there is
nothing over 3D.

This is the key point: the 3C bid should have about twice the range of
3D. That lets you divide responder's constructive through invitational
range into thirds. Come to think of it, I wonder whether there's merit
in making 3C split-range: either the weakest or the strongest third of
the combined range with 3D showing the middle third. It's probably not
a big advantage, though, even if the idea has theoretical merit.

I love that idea. Given a system where 3D showed 6-7 and 3C showed 8-11, that would mean switching 3D to 8-9 and having 3C show 6-7 or 10-11. It would be pretty easy to decide if one had a maximum or minimum 3C bid.

[jogs]

Post by P***@yahoo.com
Matchpoint Pairs, Both Vulnerable
Opening the following hand 1H in first position, you hear partner bid 3D, which is a four-card limit raise, showing 10 to a bad 12 HCPs. How do you proceed? The problem is that if partner has no aces, you can't go above 4H. If partner has two aces, you're good for small slam.
I tried 3S, and partner said 4H. Now do I just pass or do I bid 4N?
S: KT
H: KQT82
D: AKQ87
C: 5

Non-vul, it's probably okay to play Bergen raises.
Vul it is a violation of estimating tricks.
When your side has only 14 combined HCP and 9 trumps your expected tricks is 7. 3M-2 for -200. Playing matchpoints you will get a bad board even when opponents fail to double.

(1M) - X - (3M) ?
The double should be responsive. When opponents are vulnerable you should try to defend. Even when you have 2-2 in trumps with no trump tricks, they can only win 7 trumps tricks assuming you lead trumps. If trumps are 3-1, they may be held to 6 trump tricks.