Discussion:
Interesting Swiss Teams Hand
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KWSchneider
2019-05-27 15:03:37 UTC
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Both Red

As S you are dealt:
T954 AQJ8542 AQ -

E deals and opens 1D. You partner N overcalls 1S. How do plan on proceeding, assuming both opponents are silent?
ais523
2019-05-27 15:26:56 UTC
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Post by KWSchneider
Both Red
T954 AQJ8542 AQ -
E deals and opens 1D. You partner N overcalls 1S. How do plan on
proceeding, assuming both opponents are silent?
If partner is strong for their overcall, we might have a slam. With a
normal overcall, we probably just have a game. AQ over the 1D opening
is nice, although just how nice depends on how much in diamonds the 1D
opening shows (this varies a lot between systems).

Luckily, the level is very low, so I start with 2D (which in the
systems I normally play, is artificial showing an invite or better in
spades; this hand falls into the "better than an invite" category). If
partner signs off with 2S, I raise to game. If partner does anything
else I look for slam (probably with cue-bids), but I won't go over 4S
myself unless partner does something very slam-encouraging.

If partner's overcall is a minimum, it's possible that we don't have a
game, but both-red at IMPs playing in game has to be the risk regardless
of partner's hand, and with plenty of entries to our own hand, I can't
see a reason not to play in the known 9-card spade fit, so there's not
much point in mentioning the hearts unless we get into the slam range.
(It might be possible to, for example, bid 6H after an Ace-ask to
offer partner a choice of slams in the majors.)
--
ais523
Lorne
2019-05-27 16:24:24 UTC
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Post by KWSchneider
Both Red
T954 AQJ8542 AQ -
E deals and opens 1D. You partner N overcalls 1S. How do plan on proceeding, assuming both opponents are silent?
So N bid out of turn !

Or did W open 1D ?

If the auction started (1D) 1S (P) then I start with 2D and if partner
shows a better than minimum 1S overcall I try 5C if that is exclusion.
Hotzenplotz
2019-05-28 00:03:15 UTC
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Post by Lorne
Post by KWSchneider
Both Red
T954 AQJ8542 AQ -
E deals and opens 1D. You partner N overcalls 1S. How do plan on proceeding, assuming both opponents are silent?
So N bid out of turn !
Or did W open 1D ?
If the auction started (1D) 1S (P) then I start with 2D and if partner
shows a better than minimum 1S overcall I try 5C if that is exclusion.
Yes indeed. If west opens the hand is nowhere near as good as an opening from East. You could cue raise, but I prefer to bid 2H here if it is forcing, which it is for me.
KWSchneider
2019-05-28 03:55:42 UTC
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W opens, sorry...
KWSchneider
2019-05-28 04:06:07 UTC
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Also - unfortunately NOT playing exclusion Blackwood.
Joanna Shuttleworth
2019-05-28 08:49:18 UTC
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Post by KWSchneider
Both Red
T954 AQJ8542 AQ -
E deals and opens 1D. You partner N overcalls 1S. How do plan on proceeding, assuming both opponents are silent?
I'd start with 3H, a fit-jump, and see whether this excites pard
KWSchneider
2019-05-30 13:47:37 UTC
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I felt the likelihood of partner having anything in hearts was zero to none, so I cuebid 2D. Partner responded 3C.

Not unexpected but disappointing. I was still convinced we had slam but unable to plot a path (without exclusion available).

What would you do next?
ais523
2019-05-30 14:26:38 UTC
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[context: IMPs, all vul; T954 AQJ8542 AQ -; (1D), 1S, ?]
Post by KWSchneider
I felt the likelihood of partner having anything in hearts was zero to
none, so I cuebid 2D. Partner responded 3C.
Not unexpected but disappointing. I was still convinced we had slam but
unable to plot a path (without exclusion available).
What would you do next?
At least in Acol, you've shown an invite or better in spades, partner's
showing an intermediate hand for their overcall and has made a trial
bid in clubs (depending on agreements, showing either length or
looking for help). That's not a perfect fit, but nonetheless fairly
encouraging for slam. The obvious response here is a counter-trial,
because there's room; if you're playing natural trial bids this would
be 3H, if you're playing control bids this would be 3D. Control bids are
better for this hand, but obviously you have to play the form of trial
bids that were agreed before the hand! (I believe "natural" is the
default when there's no particular agreement.)

Assuming natural trial bids, the bidding starts (1D), 1S, 2D; 3C, 3H.
A partner who has a minimum for their previous bidding will now sign off
in 3S (spades are agreed, after all); then you can raise to 4S and enjoy
your game. A signoff in 4S would show a stronger hand but, with the
diamonds on the left, I'd still be sceptical about slam. Unfortunately,
most cue-bidding systems don't distinguish "I'm not interested in slam"
4S from "I'm interested in slam, but don't have any Aces outside spades"
4S, so you may have to guess which hand your partner has. A side-suit
bid would either be very excited for slam or a sign that the auction
had gone off the rails (you have both red Aces, after all). 3NT is
probably conventional, especially after the 3C bid.

FWIW, I think it's a better system for cue-bids to show /missing/ Aces
rather than Aces held (obviously, this needs agreement in advance),
because it removes all the potential ambiguity; if you were interested
in slam and weren't missing any Aces, you'd just bid it, so any slam
try bid would necessarily show the Ace of any suit that was skipped
over. Under that system, any slam try by partner would unambiguously
show or deny the Ace of Clubs, so you could use Blackwood despite the
void because you'd always be able to interpret the answer correctly.

By the way, all this discussion is a good argument for cue bids opposite
an overcall to unconditionally agree partner's suit, like they do in
Acol. In Standard American, they usually have partner's suit but not
always, which just leads to a lot of confusion in an auction like this.
--
ais523
KWSchneider
2019-05-31 03:26:59 UTC
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The problem as it turned out, was our style of using Italian cue-bids. I couldn’t tell the difference between a diamond K, A, singleton or void.

I ultimately found that my partner had 1 keycard, and had cue-bid clubs and hearts.

You’re at a crossroads, settle for 5S or bid 6S? What could she have?
ais523
2019-05-31 03:51:02 UTC
Permalink
[context: IMPs, all vul; T954 AQJ8542 AQ -; (1D), 1S, 2D; 3C]
Post by KWSchneider
The problem as it turned out, was our style of using Italian cue-bids.
I couldn’t tell the difference between a diamond K, A, singleton or void.
I ultimately found that my partner had 1 keycard, and had cue-bid clubs and hearts.
Wait, you have almost two bidding levels between 3C and 4S (and three
between 3C and 5S). Surely that would transmit more information than two
cuebid suits (and at the five level, keycard count)? In particular, it's
quite relevant what suits partner /doesn't/ have A/K/x/- in. It's also
relevant whether partner ever had a chance to show hand strength (e.g.
by bidding or bypassing 3S to show a minimum and maximum respectively).

Still, assuming this is all the information we're getting...
Post by KWSchneider
You’re at a crossroads, settle for 5S or bid 6S? What could she have?
You probably have a trump loser; partner probably has something like
AQxxx, AJxxx, or KQxxx in spades (assuming that their overcalls are
fairly sound; if you'd expect them to look more like Kxxxx, you
probably have to settle for five, and might not even make that). If
partner hasn't narrowed down their strength any more accurately, I'm
guessing they have around 12 HCP or equivalent, so there's around 6
unaccounted for. Some of that is almost certainly going to be wasted
in clubs, so it's likely that partner has one of the red kings but not
both.

As such, slam is probably on a finesse (and worse, the lead's been
wrong-sided). Even if partner has AQ of trumps, the Jack could be a
problem, so it's not really on one of two finesses even in that case.
Given your void and long hearts, there probably isn't a problem
finding enough winners, so losers are the only real thing to worry
about.

I guess the odds are probably high enough for bidding the slam to be
correct, but I'd be scared to; it's far from certain on the information
given, it's just that the expected loss from missing it and being
stuck in game seems slightly higher from the expected loss from going
too high.

If you have a trump-Queen ask available, this might be a good time to
deploy it. If the Queen of trumps, that may well swing the
probabilities onto the side of staying low.

(I also considered 6H here but decided against it; a heart fit is
possible on the information we have, but the 5:4 trump fit is probably
better than a hypothetical 7:3 trump fit due to your club void,
assuming that both exist.)
--
ais523
KWSchneider
2019-05-31 12:18:12 UTC
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We do have a trump Q ask. But do you use it when you could be off AK of trump?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2019-05-31 15:05:35 UTC
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We do have a Trump Q ask.
I think we have many.

(Sorry about the misquote)
--
/Bertel
Lorne
2019-05-31 11:14:06 UTC
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Post by KWSchneider
The problem as it turned out, was our style of using Italian cue-bids. I couldn’t tell the difference between a diamond K, A, singleton or void.
I ultimately found that my partner had 1 keycard, and had cue-bid clubs and hearts.
You’re at a crossroads, settle for 5S or bid 6S? What could she have?
Surely 6S is clear. You have a trump loser but if partner has the A
clubs or K hearts the diamond loser will go away, Even a small heart
maybe OK as a ruffing finnesse is likely to work. I do not think
partner should be making positive noises if there are 2 trump losers
opposite 4 card support.
KWSchneider
2019-05-31 12:15:31 UTC
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Partner doesn’t guarantee CA for club cue. And she has only shown 1 keycard. My partner’s assets are as follows:
One of SK, CA, SA...
If not CK, then CA, then 2 trump losers
How do I determine that my partner specifically has ONE of the top two trump honors, instead of CA?
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