Discussion:
How to get to slam?
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nrford100
2019-08-28 23:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Matchpoints. Nobody vul. South is dealer.

N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9

I'm having trouble getting to slam in either SA or 2/1 after 1S-2C.
Or should we even be in slam in MPs? Whether in spades or clubs,
we still need the S:Q to drop.

In SA:
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
..-3C - Feel like North should show the long, strong clubs before raising.
4C-4D - Control bidding.
4H-??

1S-2C
3S-??

In 2/1:
1S-2C
2S-?? or 3S to show the long, nearly-solid suit?

I sometimes play what we call a Self-Splinter showing a long strong major and support for partner's minor.
1S-2C
4H-... Then North could ask for aces.
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-29 02:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by nrford100
Matchpoints. Nobody vul. South is dealer.
N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9
I'm having trouble getting to slam in either SA or 2/1 after 1S-2C.
Or should we even be in slam in MPs? Whether in spades or clubs,
we still need the S:Q to drop.
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Ideas like a 2/1 didn't promise a rebid seem so last century; millenium
perhaps.
Abuses of 1M-3m like bergen, mini-splinters etc have just made the
position worse.
Post by nrford100
..-3C - Feel like North should show the long, strong clubs before raising.
It would be nice if you could show the C support non-noncommittally but
you must fret about the late entry to the spades if you have to ruff one
to set them up. The late entry has to be a trump which means you play
the spades before drawing trumps. Also a 4-1 trump (C) split will deny
you access tot he long spades.

It is safer to play with the 7+card suit as trumps.
Post by nrford100
4C-4D - Control bidding.
4H-??
1S-2C
3S-??
This seems about right at the moment.
The cue bidding might be tricky e.g. is 4C now just arguing about
denomination or is is clearly a cue? If 1S-3C is FG+ with good clubs
then 1S-3C-3S-4C looks like an argument about denomination
but 1S-2C-3S-4C looks like a cue.
(this is one way 1M-3m as Bergen can damage your slam bidding with no
real gain in game bidding).
Post by nrford100
1S-2C
2S-?? or 3S to show the long, nearly-solid suit?
I think you need 3S to show the good, long suit.
Post by nrford100
I sometimes play what we call a Self-Splinter showing a long strong major and support for partner's minor.
1S-2C
4H-... Then North could ask for aces.
Why wouldn't 3H be the splinter? Are you differentiating between a 3H
and a 4H splinter in an unsuaul way?
There is a school of thought about system structure that suggests jumps
to a game bid should all be a natural offer to play.
Saves accidents especially when oppo are in the auction.

doug
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-29 11:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
Matchpoints. Nobody vul. South is dealer.
N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9
I'm having trouble getting to slam in either SA or 2/1 after 1S-2C.
Or should we even be in slam in MPs? Whether in spades or clubs,
we still need the S:Q to drop.
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Ideas like a 2/1 didn't promise a rebid seem so last century; millenium
perhaps.
Abuses of 1M-3m like bergen, mini-splinters etc have just made the
position worse.
Post by nrford100
..-3C - Feel like North should show the long, strong clubs before raising.
It would be nice if you could show the C support non-noncommittally but
you must fret about the late entry to the spades if you have to ruff one
to set them up. The late entry has to be a trump which means you play
the spades before drawing trumps. Also a 4-1 trump (C) split will deny
you access tot he long spades.
It is safer to play with the 7+card suit as trumps.
Post by nrford100
4C-4D - Control bidding.
4H-??
1S-2C
3S-??
This seems about right at the moment.
The cue bidding might be tricky e.g. is 4C now just arguing about
denomination or is is clearly a cue? If 1S-3C is FG+ with good clubs
then 1S-3C-3S-4C looks like an argument about denomination
but 1S-2C-3S-4C looks like a cue.
(this is one way 1M-3m as Bergen can damage your slam bidding with no
real gain in game bidding).
Post by nrford100
1S-2C
2S-?? or 3S to show the long, nearly-solid suit?
I think you need 3S to show the good, long suit.
Post by nrford100
I sometimes play what we call a Self-Splinter showing a long strong major and support for partner's minor.
1S-2C
4H-... Then North could ask for aces.
Why wouldn't 3H be the splinter? Are you differentiating between a 3H
and a 4H splinter in an unsuaul way?
There is a school of thought about system structure that suggests jumps
to a game bid should all be a natural offer to play.
Saves accidents especially when oppo are in the auction.
doug
I believe it is unplayable for 1S - 2C ; 3S - 4C to be arguing about the strain. In that case, 3S must deny slam-suitable club support.

Maybe you need to reserve a bid to show both slam-suitable club support and spades playable at game opposite a void. But as always, splinters make that impossible.

Carl
ais523
2019-08-29 14:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
I believe it is unplayable for 1S - 2C ; 3S - 4C to be arguing about
the strain. In that case, 3S must deny slam-suitable club support.
Maybe you need to reserve a bid to show both slam-suitable club
support and spades playable at game opposite a void. But as always,
splinters make that impossible.
6C.

Obviously, you don't bid it immediately. Rather, both players know that
clubs are slam-suitable if their partner has an appropriate holding, so
once you've done your cue-bidding or keycard checks or whatever other
method you have to make sure you want to be in slam, whichever partner
would bid 6S bids 6C instead. Then their partner bids 6S if they don't
have the club support (or thinks spades will work better), and just
passes 6C if they do.

Especially at matchpoints, this is probably a more valuable use of the
bids between 5S and 6S than grand slam tries are (although it's
possible to fit both into a system, e.g. via requiring all grand slam
tries to go through 5NT and reserving a direct 6C, 6D, 6H for choice of
slams, or vice versa).
--
ais523
nrford100
2019-08-29 16:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
I believe it is unplayable for 1S - 2C ; 3S - 4C to be arguing about the strain. In that case, 3S must deny slam-suitable club support.
Maybe you need to reserve a bid to show both slam-suitable club support and spades playable at game opposite a void. But as always, splinters make that impossible.
One good thing about the Splinter is that without it, in this case, neither side can ask for aces/keys (N has H:xxx and S has D:xx). With the heart control shown, N can ask for keys. In fact, I just remembered that using 6-Ace Roman Keycard, we can ask for A/K/Q's in both suits. Haven't figured out on the spur of the moment if that helps or hurts more.
nrford100
2019-08-29 16:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Good point.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
I sometimes play what we call a Self-Splinter showing a long strong major and support for partner's minor.
1S-2C
4H-... Then North could ask for aces.
Why wouldn't 3H be the splinter? Are you differentiating between a 3H
and a 4H splinter in an unsuaul way?
There is a school of thought about system structure that suggests jumps
to a game bid should all be a natural offer to play.
Saves accidents especially when oppo are in the auction.
In 2/1 Forcing, 3H *would* be the splinter, but I figured that in SA (non-2/1 Forcing), 3H would be showing extra strength plus hearts, so it would take 4H to splinter.
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-29 22:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by nrford100
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Good point.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
I sometimes play what we call a Self-Splinter showing a long strong major and support for partner's minor.
1S-2C
4H-... Then North could ask for aces.
Why wouldn't 3H be the splinter? Are you differentiating between a 3H
and a 4H splinter in an unusuaul way?
There is a school of thought about system structure that suggests jumps
to a game bid should all be a natural offer to play.
Saves accidents especially when oppo are in the auction.
In 2/1 Forcing, 3H *would* be the splinter, but I figured that in SA (non-2/1 Forcing), 3H would be showing extra strength plus hearts, so it would take 4H to splinter.
In 2/1 forcing to 2NT, a 2H rebid is not passable and so
3H can be a splinter.


doug
KWSchneider
2019-08-30 02:41:00 UTC
Permalink
1S-2C is forcing to game in 2/1. THAT is the whole basis for the system. In SA, the 2/1 bid is only forcing to 2N.

So in 2/1, 1S-2C-2S-3C-4N-3KC-6C
In SA, 1S-2C-3S-4C-4N-3KC-6C
nrford100
2019-08-31 19:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
In 2/1 Forcing, 3H *would* be the splinter, but I figured that in SA (non-2/1 Forcing), 3H would be showing extra strength plus hearts, so it would take 4H to splinter.
In 2/1 forcing to 2NT, a 2H rebid is not passable and so
3H can be a splinter.
doug
Uh, thanks for clarifying that for me?
Travis Crump
2019-08-30 04:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
Matchpoints. Nobody vul. South is dealer.
N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9
I'm having trouble getting to slam in either SA or 2/1 after 1S-2C.
Or should we even be in slam in MPs? Whether in spades or clubs,
we still need the S:Q to drop.
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Ideas like a 2/1 didn't promise a rebid seem so last century; millenium
perhaps.
Abuses of 1M-3m like bergen, mini-splinters etc have just made the
position worse.
Post by nrford100
..-3C - Feel like North should show the long, strong clubs before raising.
It would be nice if you could show the C support non-noncommittally but
you must fret about the late entry to the spades if you have to ruff one
to set them up. The late entry has to be a trump which means you play
the spades before drawing trumps. Also a 4-1 trump (C) split will deny
you access tot he long spades.
It is safer to play with the 7+card suit as trumps.
You have a nine card club fit. 6C is much better than 6S. 6S is under
50% if they always find their club ruff if available. 6C I get
~75.6%[eyeballing it but certainly >70%], draw 2 clubs and then play on
spades. 6C is easier to misdefend too. After a heart lead play to ruff
two hearts. After heart, heart, you are virtually cold.

So if you are going to construct an auction, you should really end up in
6C. I wouldn't be upset about being in 4S though.
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-30 06:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by nrford100
Matchpoints. Nobody vul. South is dealer.
N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9
I'm having trouble getting to slam in either SA or 2/1 after 1S-2C.
Or should we even be in slam in MPs? Whether in spades or clubs,
we still need the S:Q to drop.
1S-2C
2S-.. - But North could pass with a minimum when game makes.
Really? I thought the modern natural way was that 2/1 was forcing to
2NT and showed about 11+hcp.
Ideas like a 2/1 didn't promise a rebid seem so last century; millenium
perhaps.
Abuses of 1M-3m like bergen, mini-splinters etc have just made the
position worse.
Post by nrford100
..-3C - Feel like North should show the long, strong clubs before raising.
It would be nice if you could show the C support non-noncommittally but
you must fret about the late entry to the spades if you have to ruff one
to set them up. The late entry has to be a trump which means you play
the spades before drawing trumps. Also a 4-1 trump (C) split will deny
you access tot he long spades.
It is safer to play with the 7+card suit as trumps.
You have a nine card club fit. 6C is much better than 6S. 6S is under
50% if they always find their club ruff if available. 6C I get
~75.6%[eyeballing it but certainly >70%], draw 2 clubs and then play on
spades. 6C is easier to misdefend too. After a heart lead play to ruff
two hearts. After heart, heart, you are virtually cold.
So if you are going to construct an auction, you should really end up in
6C. I wouldn't be upset about being in 4S though.
It's not a question of a whole auction, it's just the choice of bid over
2C and you do not know partner has 6 at that point (are you guaranteed 5
even?).
I'm as good as the next man at picking contracts looking at all 4 hands.
There is a difference between rationality and clairvoyance at opener's
rebid.

doug
t***@att.net
2019-09-01 21:51:56 UTC
Permalink
N: T4-872-AK-AQJ432
S: AKJ9632-9-53-KT9

Tough even in my canape system.

1S-3C ( 6+card suit, at least KQ, 12+HCP).
4C-(suit agreement), 4D (Cue)
4S-(Cue) 4NT (A or K of trump, not both)
6C (must have second round Heart control).

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