Discussion:
Triple Fit
(too old to reply)
Fred.
2016-09-23 19:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Teams, none vulnerable, dealer South, fairly basic Precision:

North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96

South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532

with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?

Fred.
p***@infi.net
2016-09-23 21:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
p-1C
1H-4D (splinter)
4H-4NT
5D-6H seems reasonable.

I would not open 2C lacking a five card major, six card minor, balanced hand or game values, but I'm sure most would. That leads to:

p-2C
2D-3C
3H-4H, not sure what next

or,
p-2C
2D-2H
4D (splinter) - ?
Ronald
2016-09-24 07:24:05 UTC
Permalink
North AQ4 AQJ3 6 AKQ96
South KJ72 KT864 3 T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should the bidding go?
How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
p-1C; 1H-4D (splinter); 4H-4NT;,5D-6H seems reasonable.
I would not open 2C lacking a five card major, six card minor, balanced
p-2C; 2D-3C; 3H-4H, not sure what next
or,
p-2C; 2D-2H; 4D (splinter) - ?
I don't understand your Precision. First you splinter, which means giving
control to your (weak) partner, then if he signs off you take control back
by asking for aces. If pard has A D in stead of KJ S would you bid 7H over
5H? With the distribution given 50%. Surely Precision can do better.

Why don't you know what to do after your 2/1 sequences. If you ask for aces
in Precision why not do the same in 2/1?
--
Ronald
p***@infi.net
2016-09-25 00:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
North AQ4 AQJ3 6 AKQ96
South KJ72 KT864 3 T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should the bidding go?
How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
p-1C; 1H-4D (splinter); 4H-4NT;,5D-6H seems reasonable.
I would not open 2C lacking a five card major, six card minor, balanced
p-2C; 2D-3C; 3H-4H, not sure what next
or,
p-2C; 2D-2H; 4D (splinter) - ?
I don't understand your Precision. First you splinter, which means giving
control to your (weak) partner, then if he signs off you take control back
by asking for aces. If pard has A D in stead of KJ S would you bid 7H over
5H? With the distribution given 50%. Surely Precision can do better.
Why don't you know what to do after your 2/1 sequences. If you ask for aces
in Precision why not do the same in 2/1?
--
Ronald
Sorry, the first auction was for stsndard, not Precision -- 1C natural and non-forcing. With three losers after partner shows hearts and some values, driving to slam looks reasonable. My Precision auction was given in a seperate post, but I meant for it to start p-1C; 1D-3C, which is equivalent to a standard p-2C; 2D-3C auction.
jogs
2016-09-25 00:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald
North AQ4 AQJ3 6 AKQ96
South KJ72 KT864 3 T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should the bidding go?
How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
p-1C; 1H-4D (splinter); 4H-4NT;,5D-6H seems reasonable.
I would not open 2C lacking a five card major, six card minor, balanced
p-2C; 2D-3C; 3H-4H, not sure what next
or,
p-2C; 2D-2H; 4D (splinter) - ?
I don't understand your Precision. First you splinter, which means giving
control to your (weak) partner, then if he signs off you take control back
by asking for aces. If pard has A D in stead of KJ S would you bid 7H over
5H? With the distribution given 50%. Surely Precision can do better.
Why don't you know what to do after your 2/1 sequences. If you ask for aces
in Precision why not do the same in 2/1?
--
Ronald
Then you'll catch this configuration.

North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96

South
32
KT86
KJ7
T532

You may have problems making 11 tricks in hearts. There's no need for opener to take control on the five level.
David Goldfarb
2016-09-25 06:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by jogs
Then you'll catch this configuration.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
32
KT86
KJ7
T532
You may have problems making 11 tricks in hearts.
I think you'd be pretty unlucky not to get 1S, 4H, a diamond ruff, and 5C;
and there are chances to do more.
--
David Goldfarb |"If I haven't killed you yet, I'll take care of
***@gmail.com | it right away."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- S. P. Somtow
p***@infi.net
2016-09-23 21:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
Basic Precision seems to be equivalent to opening 2C and getting a nearly uninformative 2D "Waiting" reply:
p-1C
1D-2C
2H-4D (splinter)

but if you play 2C is a control & support asking bid it might be hard to find hearts. My preference would be a 1H rebid by opener but Precision players want major suit bids to promise five.
Dave Flower
2016-09-24 08:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
As a regular Precision player I find it hard to see a sequence that reaches a slam. Even starting:

1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?

South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.

Dave Flower
jogs
2016-09-24 12:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H?????

Responder wouldn't bid 4H, would he? He has a max hand. What's wrong with 3S or 4C?
Dave Flower
2016-09-24 16:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H?????
Responder wouldn't bid 4H, would he? He has a max hand. What's wrong with 3S or 4C?
The way I play it, 3s or 4C would show first round control. I agree that responder is maximum, but their club holding is dire and there is an inference from opponents' failure to bid diamonds that partner has a few diamonds, and is consequently short in spades. I agree that this inference is wrong.

David Flower
jogs
2016-09-24 19:15:55 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 9:30:52 AM UTC-7,
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H?????
Responder wouldn't bid 4H, would he? He has a max hand. What's wrong with 3S or 4C?
The way I play it, 3s or 4C would show first round control. I agree that responder is maximum, but their club holding is dire and there is an inference from opponents' failure to bid diamonds that partner has a few diamonds, and is consequently short in spades. I agree that this inference is wrong.
David Flower
That's far too restrictive. Responder has at most 7 HCP. He isn't likely to hold a 1st round control. Bidding a 2nd round control implies a possible second 2nd round control. If responder's HCP were restricted to 5 HCP or less the 2nd round control would imply nothing extra.

South
KJ7
KT864
3
T532

1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 3S
4C 5C
6D all pass

Must have diamond loser.
rhm
2016-09-24 18:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
3H looks to me wrong.
Splintering in diamonds is much better. It tells South that values outside of diamonds are useful including spades.
Furthermore it tells South that North has a huge hand.
Since opener is missing both major suit kings and South is limited to 7 HCP North must have at most one loser in the minors, most likely solid clubs with both major suit aces and the heart queen.
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-26 22:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by rhm
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
3H looks to me wrong.
Splintering in diamonds is much better. It tells South that values outside of diamonds are useful including spades.
Furthermore it tells South that North has a huge hand.
Since opener is missing both major suit kings and South is limited to 7 HCP North must have at most one loser in the minors, most likely solid clubs with both major suit aces and the heart queen.
I think 3H (if it's forcing) is better than a splinter because you
want to allow room for a spade cue bid.
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
3H sets hearts
3S cue
4C 4D
4N 5C 1 or 4
6H

for the weaker hand, down thread a bit,
1C 1D
1H 1S 0-4 any
2C F1
2H
4H


Playing a natural system, it might go
1C 1D transfer to hearts
3D C&H and D splinter
3H (unenthusiastic; but maybe 3S is close))
3S (this replaces serious 3NT when H are agreed)
3N spade splinter
4N etc
6H

doug
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-27 03:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by rhm
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
As a regular Precision player I find it hard to see a sequence that
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or
AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
3H looks to me wrong.
Splintering in diamonds is much better. It tells South that values
outside of diamonds are useful including spades.
Furthermore it tells South that North has a huge hand.
Since opener is missing both major suit kings and South is limited to
7 HCP North must have at most one loser in the minors, most likely
solid clubs with both major suit aces and the heart queen.
I think 3H (if it's forcing) is better than a splinter because you
want to allow room for a spade cue bid.
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
3H sets hearts
3S cue
4C 4D
4N 5C 1 or 4
6H
for the weaker hand, down thread a bit,
1C 1D
1H 1S 0-4 any
2C F1
2H
4H
Playing a natural system, it might go
1C 1D transfer to hearts
3D C&H and D splinter
3H (unenthusiastic; but maybe 3S is close))
3S (this replaces serious 3NT when H are agreed)
3N spade splinter
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by Douglas Newlands
4N etc
6H
"spade cue" was what I meant

doug
Berti Rupsli
2016-09-27 08:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
etc...

Doug: Would you still bid 2S here with the corrected South hand (S:KJ7 only)?
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-27 23:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
etc...
Doug: Would you still bid 2S here with the corrected South hand (S:KJ7 only)?
I didn't notice a correction.
2S shows a 4 card suit.
With 3532, the second bid would be 2NT and
the auction would continue as before.

doug
Berti Rupsli
2016-09-28 10:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
etc...
Doug: Would you still bid 2S here with the corrected South hand (S:KJ7 only)?
I didn't notice a correction.
2S shows a 4 card suit.
With 3532, the second bid would be 2NT and
the auction would continue as before.
doug
Doug: Thanks for the answer, I found this bidding sequence interesting. The correction was presented before because S2 in the South hand was the 14th card.

In your reply you referred to a 3532, resulting in 2NT (instead of 2S), which goes perfectly with the "balanced" holding.

The "corrected" original situation rather is 3514, with a fairly weak C:T532. So, I'd wonder would the 4c "LENGTH" in C be shown with a 3C bid (even if it were C:6532); or would the WEAK 4cC result in a 2NT bid instead, but wouldn't that "hide" the singleton OTOH? Or would a 3C bid say anything about controls in C?

Coming back to the first version of your bidding sequence with ...2S...: would you even bid it as a WEAK 4cS (like eg S:6532)?... So, would Majors receive the same treatment as minors insofar here?

Thanks,
Berti
Douglas Newlands
2016-09-28 13:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
etc...
Doug: Would you still bid 2S here with the corrected South hand (S:KJ7 only)?
I didn't notice a correction.
2S shows a 4 card suit.
With 3532, the second bid would be 2NT and
the auction would continue as before.
doug
Doug: Thanks for the answer, I found this bidding sequence interesting. The correction was presented before because S2 in the South hand was the 14th card.
In your reply you referred to a 3532, resulting in 2NT (instead of 2S), which goes perfectly with the "balanced" holding.
The "corrected" original situation rather is 3514, with a fairly weak C:T532. So, I'd wonder would the 4c "LENGTH" in C be shown with a 3C bid (even if it were C:6532); or would the WEAK 4cC result in a 2NT bid instead, but wouldn't that "hide" the singleton OTOH? Or would a 3C bid say anything about controls in C?
Clearly I am not keeping up with the corrections.
With 3514, the normal bid would be 3C.
Bidding 2N with 3514 is bending the system and partner will expect
a later 4D cue to be an A or K!
Post by Berti Rupsli
Coming back to the first version of your bidding sequence with ...2S...: would you even bid it as a WEAK 4cS (like eg S:6532)?... So, would Majors receive the same treatment as minors insofar here?
Yes we would bid a weak 4 card major since 2N is a further ask over
a 4 card major e.g.
1C 1D
1H 2D
2H 2S
2N asks about range and shortage. The range part is perhaps
a bit over the top but it keeps the steps exactly like
our jacoby structure so
3C all minimums
3D now insists on hearing about a singleton
bid the shortage or
bid a held suit to deny a singleton
3D not min, no shortage
3H not min, short hearts ie 4153 or 4162
4C not min, club shortage as above
the other bids are used but not relevant here

There are a couple of other wrinkles.

So you see when you have this kind of mechanism embedded in the
bidding structure, you can't lie about shape because suddenly
you might not have a bid on the next round. eg if you show
a 5332, and the relay asks for the doubleton and if you have lied
with a 5431, you are stuffed.

So we also use the 2NT enquiry after sequences like
1C 1S
2C 2H
2N and responder can even show a shortage in your first suit.

It's not a full relay system with full shape resolution
but it gives you some of the features while allowing plenty of
natural auctions.

doug
Berti Rupsli
2016-09-28 14:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Berti Rupsli
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Douglas Newlands
I play a version of precision with a couple of partners and we would bid it
1C 1D 0-7
1H 19+anyshape
2D 5-7 and 5+H (auction is FG now)
2H asks about shape
2S second suit
etc...
Doug: Would you still bid 2S here with the corrected South hand (S:KJ7 only)?
I didn't notice a correction.
2S shows a 4 card suit.
With 3532, the second bid would be 2NT and
the auction would continue as before.
doug
Doug: Thanks for the answer, I found this bidding sequence interesting. The correction was presented before because S2 in the South hand was the 14th card.
In your reply you referred to a 3532, resulting in 2NT (instead of 2S), which goes perfectly with the "balanced" holding.
The "corrected" original situation rather is 3514, with a fairly weak C:T532. So, I'd wonder would the 4c "LENGTH" in C be shown with a 3C bid (even if it were C:6532); or would the WEAK 4cC result in a 2NT bid instead, but wouldn't that "hide" the singleton OTOH? Or would a 3C bid say anything about controls in C?
Clearly I am not keeping up with the corrections.
With 3514, the normal bid would be 3C.
Bidding 2N with 3514 is bending the system and partner will expect
a later 4D cue to be an A or K!
Post by Berti Rupsli
Coming back to the first version of your bidding sequence with ...2S...: would you even bid it as a WEAK 4cS (like eg S:6532)?... So, would Majors receive the same treatment as minors insofar here?
Yes we would bid a weak 4 card major since 2N is a further ask over
a 4 card major e.g.
1C 1D
1H 2D
2H 2S
2N asks about range and shortage. The range part is perhaps
a bit over the top but it keeps the steps exactly like
our jacoby structure so
3C all minimums
3D now insists on hearing about a singleton
bid the shortage or
bid a held suit to deny a singleton
3D not min, no shortage
3H not min, short hearts ie 4153 or 4162
4C not min, club shortage as above
the other bids are used but not relevant here
There are a couple of other wrinkles.
So you see when you have this kind of mechanism embedded in the
bidding structure, you can't lie about shape because suddenly
you might not have a bid on the next round. eg if you show
a 5332, and the relay asks for the doubleton and if you have lied
with a 5431, you are stuffed.
So we also use the 2NT enquiry after sequences like
1C 1S
2C 2H
2N and responder can even show a shortage in your first suit.
It's not a full relay system with full shape resolution
but it gives you some of the features while allowing plenty of
natural auctions.
doug
Doug: Thanks a lot for explaining this interesting bidding mechanism!
Berti
Dave Flower
2016-09-26 11:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
On the other hand, partner has made a slam try knowing that I have no first round controls, so perhaps I should bid 5D, and bid 6H if partner bids 5H

Dave Flower
jogs
2016-09-26 15:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
On the other hand, partner has made a slam try knowing that I have no first round controls, so perhaps I should bid 5D, and bid 6H if partner bids 5H
Dave Flower
South
J72
98764
K
T532

How do you bid this hand?
Dave Flower
2016-09-26 21:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jogs
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
1C 1D
2C 2H
3H 4H
4S ?
South's club holding looks dangerous; partner must hold AKQxx or AKxxxx for there to be no club loser.
Dave Flower
On the other hand, partner has made a slam try knowing that I have no first round controls, so perhaps I should bid 5D, and bid 6H if partner bids 5H
Dave Flower
South
J72
98764
K
T532
How do you bid this hand?
I pass 2C

Dave Flower
Andrew B
2016-09-24 18:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Depends on which of South's 14 cards is the typo.
Fred.
2016-09-24 21:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew B
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ72
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Depends on which of South's 14 cards is the typo.
Spade 2.

Fred.
KWSchneider
2016-09-29 13:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
North
AQ4
AQJ3
6
AKQ96
South
KJ7
KT864
3
T532
with the opponents silent (they really were!) how should
the bidding go? How should these hands be bid in 2/1?
Fred.
Really can't get there with basic Precision after a 1D response. With our strong club, we would bid the hand:

1C* 2D**
3C" 4C
4S 5S
6H

* 15+ any
** 7-9, 5+h, unbalanced, GI
" GF super-accept 4h/5+c

The rest are cues or natural. Opener can place the 7-9pts in spades and hearts.

If responder was weaker, say J72 KT862 3 T532, the auction would proceed:

1C* 1D**
1N" 2D""
3C" 4C
4H

* 15+ any
** 0-6 bal or semi-bal; or 10-14 4+h GF
" 20+ any
"" 0-6, 5+h
" GI super-accept 4h/5+c

Kurt
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