Discussion:
I can't lead a trump.
(too old to reply)
Dave Flower
2019-02-07 12:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer

2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass

void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2

What do you lead ?

Dave Flower
Will in New Haven
2019-02-07 18:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Heart Six, wtp

--
Will in Pompano Beach
Ars Ivci
2019-02-07 18:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
D5.
--
peace,
t.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-07 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ars Ivci
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
D5.
--
peace,
t.
partner did not double 2!d. he had no chance to suggest !h lead.

Also, there is no reason not to hope for H Q in partner's hand.

Carl
Ars Ivci
2019-02-07 19:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Ars Ivci
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
D5.
--
peace,
t.
partner did not double 2!d. he had no chance to suggest !h lead.
Also, there is no reason not to hope for H Q in partner's hand.
Carl
All being true, I still do not see why partner should double just
because she had DK.
--
peace,
t.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-08 16:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ars Ivci
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Ars Ivci
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
D5.
--
peace,
t.
partner did not double 2!d. he had no chance to suggest !h lead.
Also, there is no reason not to hope for H Q in partner's hand.
Carl
All being true, I still do not see why partner should double just
because she had DK.
--
peace,
t.
No, but it is a restricted choice matter.

Carl
John Hall
2019-02-07 19:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
On this bidding, it sounds as if declarer is likely to have a void or
singleton club, or conceivably KQ bare. If that's the case, then the
lead of the Ace of clubs will only cost if dummy has the King of clubs
and declarer is able to get to it. On that basis, I think that lead may
be the least likely to give away a trick.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-07 19:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hall
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
On this bidding, it sounds as if declarer is likely to have a void or
singleton club, or conceivably KQ bare. If that's the case, then the
lead of the Ace of clubs will only cost if dummy has the King of clubs
and declarer is able to get to it. On that basis, I think that lead may
be the least likely to give away a trick.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
The real hope when leading the C A is singleton for partner. If that fails, you have given up hope.

Carl
ais523
2019-02-07 19:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
I ask the opponents if they have any Ace-asking agreements that could
have been used in the auction. If RHO could have asked for Aces and
didn't, it's very unlikely that they have Kx of Clubs and a solid hand
otherwise, so the Ace of Clubs is almost certainly a safe lead.

If the opponents' system isn't that complex, and RHO is just guessing at
the final contract, our most likely place to get a second trick is a
slow winner in one of the side-suits. We'll need to keep the Ace of
Clubs in hand to potentially cover a King in declarer's hand, so I lead
a small diamond on the basis that underleading a Queen feels less
likely to be dangerous than underleading a King, and it's very likely
that declarer has short diamonds anyway (if declarer is planning to
ruff the third round of diamonds, which seems very likely, our Queen
isn't doing anything).

I'd be tempted to lead the 7 of diamonds (implying I had no Diamond
honours) as a falsecard (discouraging declarer from finessing me for
the Queen). After all, if partner actually ends up on lead later in the
contract, we've probably defeated the slam anyway, so there's no reason
to tell them the truth. That said, it's such an obvious strategy in this
position that it may just be best to randomize what small diamond to
lead. (Signalling against slams generally doesn't seem all that useful
to me, at least not with standard methods; I'm interested in whether
anyone has a method specialised for the purpose.)
--
ais523
Steve Willner
2019-02-07 20:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
Do I understand the auction? This hand _passed_ over 2C?! Bidding
wouldn't (presumably) have changed the final contract, but partner's
action might have given a clue to the lead.
Post by Dave Flower
What do you lead ?
I'd never be in this position, but if called as a substitute for the
comatose player who passed, I'd try C-A. Close second choice is
whatever D spot our agreements call for. That would leave C-A as an
exit card if I win a red-suit trick and can't afford to return the suit.
H could be right, I suppose, but I can't construct a hand where it's
necessary (other than by avoiding a C lead).
Hotzenplotz
2019-02-09 02:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
CA. I have seen many people gambling in this situation.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2019-02-09 08:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by Dave Flower
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
What do you lead ?
CA. I have seen many people gambling in this situation.
One Danish bridge player even made it a rule: Against slam -
always lead an ace (if possible). He even produced statistic
material to back his rule.

If it still works today, I do not know.
--
/Bertel
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-09 14:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by Dave Flower
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
What do you lead ?
CA. I have seen many people gambling in this situation.
One Danish bridge player even made it a rule: Against slam -
always lead an ace (if possible). He even produced statistic
material to back his rule.
If it still works today, I do not know.
--
/Bertel
Did his "always" include the trump ace with KQ in another suit?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2019-02-09 15:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
One Danish bridge player even made it a rule: Against slam -
always lead an ace (if possible). He even produced statistic
material to back his rule.
Did his "always" include the trump ace with KQ in another suit?
I don't remember having read anything specific about the trump
ace in this connection. Presumably it would be a rare occurence.
--
/Bertel
KWSchneider
2019-02-09 05:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with declarer.

The auction is telling, inasmuch as opener did not open 6S. This seems to imply that opener has either:
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for

With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer is missing the Ace).

This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-09 14:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with declarer.
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for
With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer is missing the Ace).
This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
what leads you to *expect* H AQ?

What is more likely: a club void in opener's hand or a club singleton in partner's?

I seems to me many of you think the scoring is board-a-match.

Carl
John Hall
2019-02-10 10:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A
simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from
partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever
minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with
declarer.
The auction is telling, inasmuch as opener did not open 6S. This
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a
positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for
With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener
has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into
declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length
there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is
likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer
is missing the Ace).
This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
what leads you to *expect* H AQ?
What is more likely: a club void in opener's hand or a club singleton in partner's?
I seems to me many of you think the scoring is board-a-match.
Carl
Even if declarer has a club void, it will only be a problem if dummy has
the King AND declarer has an entry to dummy. In view of the bidding, I
think that's a smaller risk than those involved in leading a heart or a
diamond.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Dave Flower
2019-02-10 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hall
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A
simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from
partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever
minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with
declarer.
The auction is telling, inasmuch as opener did not open 6S. This
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a
positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for
With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener
has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into
declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length
there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is
likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer
is missing the Ace).
This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
what leads you to *expect* H AQ?
What is more likely: a club void in opener's hand or a club singleton in partner's?
I seems to me many of you think the scoring is board-a-match.
Carl
Even if declarer has a club void, it will only be a problem if dummy has
the King AND declarer has an entry to dummy. In view of the bidding, I
think that's a smaller risk than those involved in leading a heart or a
diamond.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
If declarer has an entry to dummy (outside of the spade suit, then the contract is probably cold

Dave
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-10 14:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Post by John Hall
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A
simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from
partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever
minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with
declarer.
The auction is telling, inasmuch as opener did not open 6S. This
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a
positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for
With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener
has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into
declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length
there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is
likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer
is missing the Ace).
This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
what leads you to *expect* H AQ?
What is more likely: a club void in opener's hand or a club singleton in partner's?
I seems to me many of you think the scoring is board-a-match.
Carl
Even if declarer has a club void, it will only be a problem if dummy has
the King AND declarer has an entry to dummy. In view of the bidding, I
think that's a smaller risk than those involved in leading a heart or a
diamond.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
If declarer has an entry to dummy (outside of the spade suit, then the contract is probably cold
Dave
unless defense has club ruff
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-02-09 14:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Just an observation - I would never have passed with that hand. A simple 2N overcall would have elicited a minor suit preference from partner and help on defensive decisions like what to lead. Whichever minor suit partner chose, I would NOT lead, as I expect a void with declarer.
a) a bigger hand than a simple 6S blast, else why would he look for a positive response other than looking for the Grand?
b) a 65 or 75 two-suiter in the majors looking for
With the auction given, and my length in the minors, I expect opener has some length in would absolutely NOT lead a low heart into declarer's expected AQ, since he's most likely to have some length there, given the bidding. I would also not lead the CA as this is likely the suit that declarer is void in (more likely since declarer is missing the Ace).
This leaves diamonds - I think the Q will be the most useful choice.
When did the 6S opening stop showing a hand solid except for missing trump A or K?

Carl
Mick Heins
2019-02-09 15:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Diamond.
--
Mickey

People who would hamper free speech always assume that they're designing
a world in which only their enemies will have to shut up.
--Nicholas Christakis
Dave Flower
2019-02-10 10:12:29 UTC
Permalink
I must take issue with those posters who advocate bidding 2NT over 2C.

If I was to guess what the final contract would be, I would suggest 4S (N/S), which, given the trump break, may well fail. Do you want to help declarer by showing your distribution ?

Finally, do you want to suggest partner sacrifices at unfavourable vulnerability at IMPs ?

Dave Flower
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Lorne
2019-02-10 17:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
I must take issue with those posters who advocate bidding 2NT over 2C.
If I was to guess what the final contract would be, I would suggest 4S (N/S), which, given the trump break, may well fail. Do you want to help declarer by showing your distribution ?
Finally, do you want to suggest partner sacrifices at unfavourable vulnerability at IMPs ?
Dave Flower
I agree.

Helping the oppo guess the suit distributions is a losing tactic unless
there is plenty of upside and I do not see that here.
Hotzenplotz
2019-02-11 04:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne
Post by Dave Flower
I must take issue with those posters who advocate bidding 2NT over 2C.
If I was to guess what the final contract would be, I would suggest 4S (N/S), which, given the trump break, may well fail. Do you want to help declarer by showing your distribution ?
Finally, do you want to suggest partner sacrifices at unfavourable vulnerability at IMPs ?
Dave Flower
I agree.
Helping the oppo guess the suit distributions is a losing tactic unless
there is plenty of upside and I do not see that here.
Ditto
KWSchneider
2019-02-11 13:09:36 UTC
Permalink
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.

Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
f***@googlemail.com
2019-02-11 19:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Really? Red at IMPs with what looks likely to be two defensive tricks and only 5-5 in the minors? It would look much more tempting to bid with, say, - xx Qxxxxx Axxxx

Think how much you need from partner for 7m to be cheap and 6S making. I agree there are possible hands (including 11- and 12- card suits in opener's hand) but it's a question of probabilities.
KWSchneider
2019-02-12 23:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@googlemail.com
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Really? Red at IMPs with what looks likely to be two defensive tricks and only 5-5 in the minors? It would look much more tempting to bid with, say, - xx Qxxxxx Axxxx
Think how much you need from partner for 7m to be cheap and 6S making. I agree there are possible hands (including 11- and 12- card suits in opener's hand) but it's a question of probabilities.
You are generous with the two defensive tricks. And that makes it more important to interfere. I would prefer something like: - xxx Qxxxxx Qxxxx. Too much defense argues AGAINST sacrificing.

Either way, all partner needs is something like xxx - KJxx xxxxxx in this instance to be successful. And I would expect him/her to push to 5C immediately after my 2N overcall with this assortment.
Hotzenplotz
2019-02-12 03:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Kurt, don't get your knockers in a knot. I assume you did see the vulnerability? Vul vs not.
KWSchneider
2019-02-12 23:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Kurt, don't get your knockers in a knot. I assume you did see the vulnerability? Vul vs not.
I was talking in generalizations - and I didn't consider vulnerability. Answer me this - would you bid on these values over a 1N opening? My bet is yes. Would you not bid on these values over 2C all white or W vs R? My bet is yes.

And yes - I would have bid on these values R vs W. Would I have sac'd at 7? Bloody unlikely unless advancer kicked me into 5m before it came back to opener.

I will always remember the advice given to me by Jeff Meckstroth, 10-12 years ago. Bid out your shape before you worry about HCP.

Think about what responder needs to have a healthy sac - not much more than:
xxx - KJxx xxxxxx - on a lucky day, you only go for 200, but likely 500. Still a great save vs the W small slam in spades.

My favorite sac of all time was (this is documented in a write up from 1978)

-
873
K98732
T975

AKQ53 JT64
AT94 KQJ652
Q64 JT
A K

T872
-
A7
QJ86432


North doesn't look much different than the hand we're discussing today. Needless to say, with dealer E, the auction went: (1H) P (2S) P; (4C) X (4N) P; (5C) P (5N) 6C; (X) AP.

While the bidding is 70's, my point is simply this - you can successfully sacrifice ONLY if you know something about your partner's hand - beyond listening to the auction. In the posting we are discussing, the 2N overcall provides exactly that.
Hotzenplotz
2019-02-15 00:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Kurt, don't get your knockers in a knot. I assume you did see the vulnerability? Vul vs not.
I was talking in generalizations - and I didn't consider vulnerability. Answer me this - would you bid on these values over a 1N opening? My bet is yes. Would you not bid on these values over 2C all white or W vs R? My bet is yes.
And yes - I would have bid on these values R vs W. Would I have sac'd at 7? Bloody unlikely unless advancer kicked me into 5m before it came back to opener.
I will always remember the advice given to me by Jeff Meckstroth, 10-12 years ago. Bid out your shape before you worry about HCP.
xxx - KJxx xxxxxx - on a lucky day, you only go for 200, but likely 500. Still a great save vs the W small slam in spades.
My favorite sac of all time was (this is documented in a write up from 1978)
-
873
K98732
T975
AKQ53 JT64
AT94 KQJ652
Q64 JT
A K
T872
-
A7
QJ86432
North doesn't look much different than the hand we're discussing today. Needless to say, with dealer E, the auction went: (1H) P (2S) P; (4C) X (4N) P; (5C) P (5N) 6C; (X) AP.
While the bidding is 70's, my point is simply this - you can successfully sacrifice ONLY if you know something about your partner's hand - beyond listening to the auction. In the posting we are discussing, the 2N overcall provides exactly that.
"Answer me this - would you bid on these values over a 1N opening? My bet is yes. Would you not bid on these values over 2C all white or W vs R? My bet is yes."

No to both questions, Kurt.
KWSchneider
2019-02-15 23:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by KWSchneider
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by KWSchneider
That blanket statement is atrocious. While it might be so in this specific instance, opener might have had a much different hand, and we might be on for a legitimate low cost save in a minor. In fact, without seeing partner’s hand, there is no evidence yet that we didn’t have a reasonable 7m save.
Advocating NOT interfering after a strong 2C opening is antithetical to common expert practice.
Kurt, don't get your knockers in a knot. I assume you did see the vulnerability? Vul vs not.
I was talking in generalizations - and I didn't consider vulnerability. Answer me this - would you bid on these values over a 1N opening? My bet is yes. Would you not bid on these values over 2C all white or W vs R? My bet is yes.
And yes - I would have bid on these values R vs W. Would I have sac'd at 7? Bloody unlikely unless advancer kicked me into 5m before it came back to opener.
I will always remember the advice given to me by Jeff Meckstroth, 10-12 years ago. Bid out your shape before you worry about HCP.
xxx - KJxx xxxxxx - on a lucky day, you only go for 200, but likely 500. Still a great save vs the W small slam in spades.
My favorite sac of all time was (this is documented in a write up from 1978)
-
873
K98732
T975
AKQ53 JT64
AT94 KQJ652
Q64 JT
A K
T872
-
A7
QJ86432
North doesn't look much different than the hand we're discussing today. Needless to say, with dealer E, the auction went: (1H) P (2S) P; (4C) X (4N) P; (5C) P (5N) 6C; (X) AP.
While the bidding is 70's, my point is simply this - you can successfully sacrifice ONLY if you know something about your partner's hand - beyond listening to the auction. In the posting we are discussing, the 2N overcall provides exactly that.
"Answer me this - would you bid on these values over a 1N opening? My bet is yes. Would you not bid on these values over 2C all white or W vs R? My bet is yes."
No to both questions, Kurt.
(:>) - agree to disagree... (:<)
KWSchneider
2019-02-11 18:38:35 UTC
Permalink
If the final contract is 4S, any entry to dummy will allow successful finesse(s). More importantly, the 2N overcall (converted to 3m), will prevent responder from bidding 2D (not a big deal), but more importantly, prevent opener from bidding 2N.
ais523
2019-02-11 19:04:19 UTC
Permalink
(context: RHO opens strong and artificial 2C at IMPs when you have
void/K86/Q7653/AT832, vulnerable vs. not vulnerable)
Post by KWSchneider
If the final contract is 4S, any entry to dummy will allow successful
finesse(s). More importantly, the 2N overcall (converted to 3m), will
prevent responder from bidding 2D (not a big deal), but more
importantly, prevent opener from bidding 2N.
Not really; it's highly common for X by opener to show the big balanced
hand (after responder passes, typically showing a game force). Suppose
there are 23 points balanced on your right (which is about the weakest
hand that would bid 2N). Now the responder will have a choice of a
penalty pass (if they make it, it's probably correct, and the
vulnerability gives a good chance it's correct), or finding game in
whatever major they happen to have (knowing that opener will have at
least 2-card support, probably more). The opponents will almost
certainly reach the right spot, as 3 of a minor doesn't pre-empt any
of responder's likely responses except possibly Stayman.

I'm generally in favour of interfering over 2C, but when you're doing
so, you're hoping that opener does /not/ have a balanced hand. Many
pairs don't have sophisticated agreements in that spot, so opener is
stuck trying to describe which major they have, and how long it is, and
how strong it is, using only 3 of a major and 4 of a major as possible
bids (it would be logical to define 4 of a minor here as something
artificial, but few systems do that). The hope you have here is that the
opposing partnership will end up in game when they should be in slam, or
vice versa, due to being unable to communicate much information about
how good the fit is in the trump suit. (The overcall can also typically
gain by allowing partner to judge a sacrifice accurately, although at
this vulnerability it's very unlikely that a sacrifice will help.)

Meanwhile, there's very little chance of ending up being stuck having to
declare unless opener's hand is balanced, as they typically have to bid
something to show their suit when they have an unbalanced hand. So the
only risks are that opener is balanced (probably not all that risky when
you have a 0355!), or that the information about your distribution helps
opener make a slam that would otherwise fail (with an outside chance
of responder being very weak, and the information helping opener make a
/game/ that would otherwise fail, but the odds of this are miniscule).
--
ais523
kingfish
2019-02-18 00:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
Club Ace. It is far more likely that opener has a stiff club, rather than Kx. With likely 7 spades, holding 3 clubs exactly is a more minimum chance than leading away from a red suit honor.
Dave Flower
2019-02-20 19:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
Vul. v. non-vul
IMPs
RHO dealer
2C(Strong, artificial & forcing) pass 2D(Negative) pass
6S all pass
void
K 8 6
Q 7 6 5 3
A 10 8 3 2
What do you lead ?
Dave Flower
For those of you who are interested, here is the full hand:

A K Q J 9 x x x
A x
A K J
void
x x void
Q 10 9 x x K 8 6
x x Q 7 6 5 3
Q x x x A 10 8 3 2
10 x x
J x x
x x x
K J x x

The board was played a six tables, always in 6H, and always making. Three times a diamond was led, and three times the CA.
Nobody found the heart lead!

David Flower
ais523
2019-02-20 20:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Flower
A K Q J 9 x x x
A x
A K J
void
x x void
Q 10 9 x x K 8 6
x x Q 7 6 5 3
Q x x x A 10 8 3 2
10 x x
J x x
x x x
K J x x
The board was played a six tables, always in 6H, and always making.
Three times a diamond was led, and three times the CA.
Nobody found the heart lead!
I'm not surprised. This is one of those situations where any lead has a
chance of blowing a trick, and with your diamond length, it seems less
likely that an opposing diamond tenace will be crucial for making the
contract than that an opposing heart tenace will (and besides, AKJ... is
a less common holding than AQ...).

It's also instructive to see that a trump lead would have defeated the
contract, if one were possible. (That said, it's still a contract that
was worth bidding: put the QD in West's hand, or QH in South's, and now
nothing the defence can do will work.)

The only way you could consistently find leads like this would be if
your bidding system made heavy use of honour-showing doubles (e.g. if
lack of X over responder's 2D denied the KD), but such a system would
probably be far too risky to be usable (the risk of a redouble would be
too high, and there's also the issue of signposting which finesses will
work and allowing the opponents to judge slam more accurately as a
result). So you pretty much just have to let the occasional bad result
like this happen, I think.
--
ais523
Will in New Haven
2019-03-14 21:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ais523
Post by Dave Flower
A K Q J 9 x x x
A x
A K J
void
x x void
Q 10 9 x x K 8 6
x x Q 7 6 5 3
Q x x x A 10 8 3 2
10 x x
J x x
x x x
K J x x
The board was played a six tables, always in 6H, and always making.
Three times a diamond was led, and three times the CA.
Nobody found the heart lead!
I'm not surprised. This is one of those situations where any lead has a
chance of blowing a trick, and with your diamond length, it seems less
likely that an opposing diamond tenace will be crucial for making the
contract than that an opposing heart tenace will (and besides, AKJ... is
a less common holding than AQ...).
It's also instructive to see that a trump lead would have defeated the
contract, if one were possible. (That said, it's still a contract that
was worth bidding: put the QD in West's hand, or QH in South's, and now
nothing the defence can do will work.)
The only way you could consistently find leads like this would be if
your bidding system made heavy use of honour-showing doubles (e.g. if
lack of X over responder's 2D denied the KD), but such a system would
probably be far too risky to be usable (the risk of a redouble would be
too high, and there's also the issue of signposting which finesses will
work and allowing the opponents to judge slam more accurately as a
result). So you pretty much just have to let the occasional bad result
like this happen, I think.
--
ais523
I don't know about "consistently" but I answered this with Heart, wtp. I have seen a lot of suit slams beaten by Kxx and Kxxx leads and lots make when that wasn't the lead. If partner has the honor we are hoping for, Queen of Hearts or King of Diamonds, the lead from the shorter suit is more likely to accomplish something good. This is almost as good as the plain suit singleton from a very weak hand (when holding more trump than this :-,)
--
Will in Deerfield Beach
“There are no words to express the abyss between isolation and having one ally. It may be conceded to the mathematician that four is twice two. But two is not twice one; two is two thousand times one.”
G.K. Chesterton
Dave Flower
2019-02-20 22:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Here is the full hand:

A K Q J x x x x
A x
A K J
void
x x void
Q 10 9 x x K 8 6
x x Q 7 6 5 3
Q 10 x x A 10 8 3 2
10 x x
J x x
x x x
K J x x

The board was played six times, always in 6S, and always making Three times the lead was CA and three times a diamond. On one occasion on a club lead, an overtrick was made

Dave Flower
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