How can a responder show a big hand in generic 2/1?

[[e-mail]]

The particular hand is

AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx

facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?

Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?

Carl

[Tom]

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that
would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

Your next bid is easy: 3H which is game forcing in Hs and slam interest.
Your partnership has 37 HC so 7NT is probable but tske your time.
Tom

[[e-mail]]

Post by Tom
Your next bid is easy: 3H which is game forcing in Hs and slam interest.
Your partnership has 37 HC so 7NT is probable but tske your time.
Tom

Indeed, the next bid is easy. So what? What is your plan over each plausible rebid after that?

In particular, when do you plan to show your power? Will you *ever* be able to show your power?

This is not a quiz. I suspect that no matter what happens, you will have to take control. But this is a hand whee you would like to show your power and let opener take control. For the 5332 to take control is just a guess.

[Tom]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by Tom
Your next bid is easy: 3H which is game forcing in Hs and slam
interest. Your partnership has 37 HC so 7NT is probable but tske your
time. Tom

Indeed, the next bid is easy. So what? What is your plan over each
plausible rebid after that?
In particular, when do you plan to show your power? Will you *ever*
be able to show your power?
This is not a quiz. I suspect that no matter what happens, you will
have to take control. But this is a hand whee you would like to show
your power and let opener take control. For the 5332 to take control
is just a guess.

Going over every possible bidding sequence is a waste of time - there
are too many. How the bidding continues depends on what partner bids
and your bidding style (ie, US versus Italian q-bids etc).

[[e-mail]]

If at each round you just get past the current, you will find the auction at 5H with no confidence that your partner knows how strong you are.

Because of suit ranks, you probably won't know whether he has the spade king. (So maybe you should have bid 3S instead of 3H.)

You will never have shown the power of your club suit.

And you would have bid the same way without the spade queen.

[Tom]

Post by ***@verizon.net
If at each round you just get past the current, you will find the
auction at 5H with no confidence that your partner knows how strong
you are.
Because of suit ranks, you probably won't know whether he has the
spade king. (So maybe you should have bid 3S instead of 3H.)
You will never have shown the power of your club suit.
And you would have bid the same way without the spade queen.

Again, until you know and state what your partnership q-bidding and slam
agreements are, you questions are a waste and I am not going to give a
tutorial here. But I'll try one last time: if you are playing Italian
q-bids, partner will bid 3S if he has the SK and then you know. END of
REPLYS. ALWAYS GIVE ALL PARTNERSHIP UNDERSTANDINGS WHEN YOU ASK A
QUESTION.

[[e-mail]]

Actually, I said "generic 2/1" for a reason. NO DETAILED AGREEMENTS ABOUT CONTROL BIDDING.

In my preferred bidding, all 16+ hands facing an opening start with 2NT unless they have a 6-card suit or 5-5. Initiating CONFI a la Rosenkranz. Works great for hands like this. So what?

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Tom

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that
would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

Your next bid is easy: 3H which is game forcing in Hs and slam interest.
Your partnership has 37 HC so 7NT is probable but tske your time.
Tom

Where did you get 37 HCP from? Opener's 2NT rebid doesn't show anything
extra. Opener doesn't need to have anything more than the 12 HCP they
showed by opening, for a total of 29 HCP.

Did you think the opening was 2NT?

[Elims]

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

1H-2C; 2N-5N; Forcing, Invite to 7, depends on 12-14/18-19 or values

[David Goldfarb]

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that
would not be the same without the spade Q?

As mentioned, 3H is an easy bid here. Now we hope that partner has
the SK and can control bid it: then we bid either 3NT or 4C, whichever
one we have agreed denotes a serious slam try.

Alternatively, if partner _doesn't_ have a spade control, then partner
will show a serious or frivolous slam try. Opposite a serious slam
try, we will drive to 6 (maybe even to 7, since a serious slam try
must surely include the CQ) and opposite a frivolous one we'll show
a serious one.

Hopefully, if partner bids 4C we have a Last Train 4D available.

Serious/Frivolous 3NT was invented for precisely this kind of hand.
If we aren't playing that or Last Train, well then we accept that
on some hands we can force to game but not show extras and will
sometimes miss slam. There were several notorious deals in the '70s
and '80s when 2/1 was being developed where that happened.

[PriorKnowledge]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that
would not be the same without the spade Q?

As mentioned, 3H is an easy bid here. Now we hope that partner has
the SK and can control bid it: then we bid either 3NT or 4C, whichever
one we have agreed denotes a serious slam try.
Alternatively, if partner _doesn't_ have a spade control, then partner
will show a serious or frivolous slam try. Opposite a serious slam
try, we will drive to 6 (maybe even to 7, since a serious slam try
must surely include the CQ) and opposite a frivolous one we'll show
a serious one.
Hopefully, if partner bids 4C we have a Last Train 4D available.
Serious/Frivolous 3NT was invented for precisely this kind of hand.
If we aren't playing that or Last Train, well then we accept that
on some hands we can force to game but not show extras and will
sometimes miss slam. There were several notorious deals in the '70s
and '80s when 2/1 was being developed where that happened.
--
David Goldfarb | "Oh, death from on high. Neat."

I vote for 5H. Partner's 2N over a game-forcing 2C shows either 12-14 or 18-19. We can't find out everything, we will just have to ask partner to make the final decision. If partner has a max 12-14, partner will bid 6H. If partner has a min 12-14, partner will pass. If partner has 18-19 (unlikely), partner can bid 7N.

[[e-mail]]

"A serious slam try must surely include the CQ"

Wouldn't the hand be bid the same with 76543 of clubs and 13 hip elsewhere?

[Fred.]

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

Presumably, opener can have a semi-balanced minimum, like

xx
AQJTx
Axx
QTx,

where small slam rolls. I would think an auction like:

1H 2C
2NT 3H
3NT* 4C *Frivolous 3NT

would convey the idea of a responding hand which might make
slam facing a min. Lacking club fit, opener can sign off rather
than showing the diamond ace. Note that given a minimum
opening, a double fit, and a diamond control, the spade queen
becomes extraneous.

If, instead, opener holds the 18-19 HCP semi-balanced hand, then
opener can show a serious hand by cue bidding over 3H, and
there should be a play for small slam, with or without the club
queen. Looking for a grand slam, responder will probably get a
chance to go looking for a club fit with a DI 4NT.

Fred.

[kingfish]

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

The weakness (My opinion) with 2/1 is that partner never is sure what trump is, how good is your trump support (if it exists), and the extent of your potential slam interest, when you respond with a vague 2/1. My solution is to play Inverted Major Suit Raises (1 round force, limit or better) and fit-Showing Jumps (game force). With the example hand, partner knows that you have a strong club suit and a fit with hearts. Partner now bids 3H with an average hand or better (which allows you to show your spade ace), or 4H with a poor hand as a warning. #d by Partner is an advance cue bid for hearts. Inverted raises provide for a descriptive rebid by opener, and that allows for game exploration in place of guessing how good the fit is.

[[e-mail]]

Post by kingfish

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

The weakness (My opinion) with 2/1 is that partner never is sure what trump is, how good is your trump support (if it exists), and the extent of your potential slam interest, when you respond with a vague 2/1. My solution is to play Inverted Major Suit Raises (1 round force, limit or better) and fit-Showing Jumps (game force). With the example hand, partner knows that you have a strong club suit and a fit with hearts. Partner now bids 3H with an average hand or better (which allows you to show your spade ace), or 4H with a poor hand as a warning. #d by Partner is an advance cue bid for hearts. Inverted raises provide for a descriptive rebid by opener, and that allows for game exploration in place of guessing how good the fit is.

If I understand your proposed auction, responder makes no effort to show his power.

He just plans to place the contract, based on whatever description opener is willing to give. And not necessarily in hearts.

In effect, it's a relay auction.

[kingfish]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by kingfish

Post by ***@verizon.net
The particular hand is
AQ10
Kxx
xx
AKJxx
facing a 1H opening. With strong jump shifts, it's easy. Without, what?
Opener rebids 2NT to the 2C response. Can you find an auction that would not be the same without the spade Q?
Carl

The weakness (My opinion) with 2/1 is that partner never is sure what trump is, how good is your trump support (if it exists), and the extent of your potential slam interest, when you respond with a vague 2/1. My solution is to play Inverted Major Suit Raises (1 round force, limit or better) and fit-Showing Jumps (game force). With the example hand, partner knows that you have a strong club suit and a fit with hearts. Partner now bids 3H with an average hand or better (which allows you to show your spade ace), or 4H with a poor hand as a warning. #d by Partner is an advance cue bid for hearts. Inverted raises provide for a descriptive rebid by opener, and that allows for game exploration in place of guessing how good the fit is.

If I understand your proposed auction, responder makes no effort to show his power.
He just plans to place the contract, based on whatever description opener is willing to give. And not necessarily in hearts.
In effect, it's a relay auction.

The "Fit Showing Jump" which is an extension auction to the application of Inverted major Suit Raises, promises a strong side suit (5+ card length), and a fit (3+ card support) for the major suit opened, and game or better values. Opener can rebid 1) 3H as a tempo bid to allow Responder to show more than game interest, 4H to warn responder that he has opened a poor hand, or make an advanced cue bid with a positive slam interest. in addition, a raise of Responder's suit shows 1 of the top 3 honors in that suit (Responder has promised 2 of the top 3 honors in his suit with the Jump Fit call). Such information provides for the opportunity to count tricks for slam purposes. With the hand provided fro Responder, if Opener held XXX, AQXXX, AX, QXX, slam would be at worst on a spade finesse. If Responder held a 6th club, slam is cold.

A standard 2/1 approach cannot provide for the team to discover the value of a club Queen in Opener's hand, and count 12 tricks. Bidding a slam with a combined 29 HCP's is unwise unless you can count a source of tricks. With a 6th heart in opener's hand, holding the club QX in place of the QXX in my example hand, slam is cold. What would be your clear auction after 1H - 2C (2/1), 2H?