How many diamonds ?

[Dave Flower]

You hold:

10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5

Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.

Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)

RHO passes, and you bid what ?

Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises

Dave Flower

[Hotzenplotz]

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises
Dave Flower

3D

[ais523]

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises

My first instinct was 3D, but after looking up the typical boundaries
between the various inverted minor responses, I think the hand is too
strong; 2D is better. (In particular, the hand is likely to make 3NT
unless there are missing stops, although there probably are missing
stops, and 5D seems plausible opposite a maximum.) I'm planning to bid
the hand as a limit raise in diamonds.

I wouldn't want to pre-empt with this hand; there's too much chance
that it's our hand, and 2D shows much of the hand anyway. (With a hand
this unbalanced, at this vulnerability, I'd seriously consider bidding
5D unilaterally if competition starts, but strong bidding like 2D may
end up silencing the opponents anyway. We probably can't penalise the
opponents on this board but they don't know that.)

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises

My first instinct was 3D, but after looking up the typical boundaries
between the various inverted minor responses, I think the hand is too
strong; 2D is better. (In particular, the hand is likely to make 3NT
unless there are missing stops, although there probably are missing
stops, and 5D seems plausible opposite a maximum.) I'm planning to bid
the hand as a limit raise in diamonds.
I wouldn't want to pre-empt with this hand; there's too much chance
that it's our hand, and 2D shows much of the hand anyway. (With a hand
this unbalanced, at this vulnerability, I'd seriously consider bidding
5D unilaterally if competition starts, but strong bidding like 2D may
end up silencing the opponents anyway. We probably can't penalise the
opponents on this board but they don't know that.)
--
ais523

In Kaplan-Sheinwold, at least, the jump raise of a minor said there was no game possible facing strong NT. So the minimum for the forcing single raise is possible game opposite SNT.

Nowadays, people who say they play K-S seem to have redefined the single raise as *probable* game opposite SNT. (They seem unaware of the redefinition and have not thought the implications through.)

If you do not raise to 2D with this hand, you are giving up on the hand, compared to strong-notrumpers who have a bid (such as 3D) to invite game based on 6-card suit.

Carl

[Fred.]

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises
Dave Flower

I think 2D is right, particularly if I have a good
way of indicating doubts about major suit stoppers over
opener's likely 2NT rebid. But I don't think I'd complain
to a partner who bid 3D.

3D may be a big winner when, as is reasonably likely, the
controls don't pan out or if opener has a weak
distributional hand.

Fred.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Fred.

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises
Dave Flower

I think 2D is right, particularly if I have a good
way of indicating doubts about major suit stoppers over
opener's likely 2NT rebid. But I don't think I'd complain
to a partner who bid 3D.
3D may be a big winner when, as is reasonably likely, the
controls don't pan out or if opener has a weak
distributional hand.
Fred.

Opener will need fast side winners, not stoppers. Presumably, 1D - 2D ; 2NT - 3D will show that.

Carl

[KWSchneider]

Too many ways to get a bad board here. The opps have at least one 8card major suit fit, and we need a special hand from our partner with double stoppers in the majors to be in 3N. I expect the opps to compete to at least 3M.

With a 10card fit, I think 5D shows this hand. Of course, I may have preempted our 6D contract but partner should expect a hand like this if s/he has enough to be there.

[ais523]

Post by KWSchneider
Too many ways to get a bad board here. The opps have at least one
8card major suit fit, and we need a special hand from our partner with
double stoppers in the majors to be in 3N. I expect the opps to
compete to at least 3M.
With a 10card fit, I think 5D shows this hand. Of course, I may have
preempted our 6D contract but partner should expect a hand like this
if s/he has enough to be there.

I don't like that; the 10 card diamond fit encourages it, but we have no
reason yet to think that this isn't our hand, and it's quite plausible
that the opponents won't find their major fit (or indeed, bid at all),
especially if we bid strongly. RHO has already passed, after all, and
an inverted 2D isn't the sort of bid that players pre-balance over.

I think it's more valuable for our partnership to figure out whether 5D
(or 3NT) is correct or not than it is for the opponents, so bidding
slowly is likely to be better for our team and the crazy jump better
from theirs.

[[e-mail]]

Post by KWSchneider
Too many ways to get a bad board here. The opps have at least one 8card major suit fit, and we need a special hand from our partner with double stoppers in the majors to be in 3N. I expect the opps to compete to at least 3M.
With a 10card fit, I think 5D shows this hand. Of course, I may have preempted our 6D contract but partner should expect a hand like this if s/he has enough to be there.

What can you mean by special hand?

JTxx
AKx
Axxx
Ax

What is improbable about that?

Besides, it is not for you to guess partner's hand in the first round. They're looking at it. If they do not have 3 fast side tricks, they know.

How can it be right to mastermind the hand?

[KWSchneider]

Because I can find more hands that don’t make 3N...

[[e-mail]]

Post by KWSchneider
Because I can find more hands that don’t make 3N...

It is not for you to mastermind the hand in the first round.

If your partner opens and you have 3 queens it is odds against you have a game. So what?

It is none of your business what partner probably has.

Carl

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by KWSchneider
Too many ways to get a bad board here. The opps have at least one 8card major suit fit, and we need a special hand from our partner with double stoppers in the majors to be in 3N. I expect the opps to compete to at least 3M.
With a 10card fit, I think 5D shows this hand. Of course, I may have preempted our 6D contract but partner should expect a hand like this if s/he has enough to be there.

What can you mean by special hand?
JTxx
AKx
Axxx
Ax
What is improbable about that?

It is about as perfect a hand as possible that partner can have where 3NT is cold. Change a small spade for a small club and you lose the first five tricks.

In my experience, it loses more often than it gains to make bids that work when partner could have a few perfect fitting hands, but fail when partner holds the more standard less than perfect hand

[[e-mail]]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by KWSchneider
Too many ways to get a bad board here. The opps have at least one 8card major suit fit, and we need a special hand from our partner with double stoppers in the majors to be in 3N. I expect the opps to compete to at least 3M.
With a 10card fit, I think 5D shows this hand. Of course, I may have preempted our 6D contract but partner should expect a hand like this if s/he has enough to be there.

What can you mean by special hand?
JTxx
AKx
Axxx
Ax
What is improbable about that?

It is about as perfect a hand as possible that partner can have where 3NT is cold. Change a small spade for a small club and you lose the first five tricks.
In my experience, it loses more often than it gains to make bids that work when partner could have a few perfect fitting hands, but fail when partner holds the more standard less than perfect hand

Making allowance for the possibility of a near-perfect hand is not the same as committing the partnership to a contract that requires the perfect hand.

In the auction 1D - 2D ; 2NT - 3D ; ? , opener will not bid 3NT without the near-perfect hand.

In contrast, after the auction 1D - 3D ; ? opener will feel sure that the diamonds won't run, and will NEVER permit a 3NT contract. Or do ANY of you weak notrumpers have a rebid for opener that demands 3NT with 2 top diamond honors. Congratulations on your planning. Has it ever come up at the table?

Carl

[ais523]

Post by ***@verizon.net
In contrast, after the auction 1D - 3D ; ? opener will feel sure that
the diamonds won't run, and will NEVER permit a 3NT contract. Or do
ANY of you weak notrumpers have a rebid for opener that demands 3NT
with 2 top diamond honors. Congratulations on your planning. Has it
ever come up at the table?

Many systems (perhaps even most serious systems) have a response of this
nature for responder over opener's weak NT. Giving opener a similar
bid would be interesting, but once the bidding's already reached an
inverted 3D it's hard to be that specific (you don't normally want to
force your side to 4). That said, opener can be aware of a 9-card fit
in that situation, and those have a decent tendency to run, so opener
will be open to the potential of 3D based on a running suit. (In
particular, when you have a particularly long fit, your partner is much
more likely than your opponents to hold missing honours in the suit.)

I think the most commonly seen convention in this situation is the
"Grant hack": after 1D...3D, 3H shows a hand that wants to play in 3NT
but isn't sure. Responder can reply with 3S or 3NT to play 3NT from
opener's or responder's side respectively (based on deductions about
where the stoppers are), or 4D to reject the invite.

In the case where responder /does/ have two top diamond honours, it
should be obvious what the opener was asking about, allowing the
responder to accept. The main problem is that in the case where
responder doesn't, they'll have to guess what prompted the invite, and
they may accept it if, say, they have two suits unexpectedly stopped.
(That said, 3NT in that situation might end up making anyway even if the
diamonds don't run.)

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net
In contrast, after the auction 1D - 3D ; ? opener will feel sure that
the diamonds won't run, and will NEVER permit a 3NT contract. Or do
ANY of you weak notrumpers have a rebid for opener that demands 3NT
with 2 top diamond honors. Congratulations on your planning. Has it
ever come up at the table?

Many systems (perhaps even most serious systems) have a response of this
nature for responder over opener's weak NT. Giving opener a similar
bid would be interesting, but once the bidding's already reached an
inverted 3D it's hard to be that specific (you don't normally want to
force your side to 4). That said, opener can be aware of a 9-card fit
in that situation, and those have a decent tendency to run, so opener
will be open to the potential of 3D based on a running suit. (In
particular, when you have a particularly long fit, your partner is much
more likely than your opponents to hold missing honours in the suit.)
I think the most commonly seen convention in this situation is the
"Grant hack": after 1D...3D, 3H shows a hand that wants to play in 3NT
but isn't sure. Responder can reply with 3S or 3NT to play 3NT from
opener's or responder's side respectively (based on deductions about
where the stoppers are), or 4D to reject the invite.
In the case where responder /does/ have two top diamond honours, it
should be obvious what the opener was asking about, allowing the
responder to accept. The main problem is that in the case where
responder doesn't, they'll have to guess what prompted the invite, and
they may accept it if, say, they have two suits unexpectedly stopped.
(That said, 3NT in that situation might end up making anyway even if the
diamonds don't run.)
--
ais523

Yes it's hard to be that specific at the 3-level.

1D - 3D ; 3H -? is badly needed when opener has a high D honor, 3 fast side tricks but needs at least a half stopper in a black suit.

As you see, life is simpler if 1D - 3D never has HHxxxx.

Carl

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by ***@verizon.net
In contrast, after the auction 1D - 3D ; ? opener will feel sure that
the diamonds won't run, and will NEVER permit a 3NT contract. Or do
ANY of you weak notrumpers have a rebid for opener that demands 3NT
with 2 top diamond honors. Congratulations on your planning. Has it
ever come up at the table?

Many systems (perhaps even most serious systems) have a response of this
nature for responder over opener's weak NT. Giving opener a similar
bid would be interesting, but once the bidding's already reached an
inverted 3D it's hard to be that specific (you don't normally want to
force your side to 4). That said, opener can be aware of a 9-card fit
in that situation, and those have a decent tendency to run, so opener
will be open to the potential of 3D based on a running suit. (In
particular, when you have a particularly long fit, your partner is much
more likely than your opponents to hold missing honours in the suit.)
I think the most commonly seen convention in this situation is the
"Grant hack": after 1D...3D, 3H shows a hand that wants to play in 3NT
but isn't sure. Responder can reply with 3S or 3NT to play 3NT from
opener's or responder's side respectively (based on deductions about
where the stoppers are), or 4D to reject the invite.
In the case where responder /does/ have two top diamond honours, it
should be obvious what the opener was asking about, allowing the
responder to accept. The main problem is that in the case where
responder doesn't, they'll have to guess what prompted the invite, and
they may accept it if, say, they have two suits unexpectedly stopped.
(That said, 3NT in that situation might end up making anyway even if the
diamonds don't run.)
--
ais523

"have a decent tendency to run" is useless to you when responder has no side entry.

Carl

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises
Dave Flower

I would bid 2D. I think the hand is worth a limit raise and partner does not have a Weak NT, so we should be optimistic.

[Lorne]

Post by Dave Flower
10 8
6
K Q 9 8 5 4
Q 10 7 5
Match-pointed pairs, opponents vulnerable.
Partner opens 1D (promising 4+ diamonds)
RHO passes, and you bid what ?
Your methods include a weak no trump and inverted minor raises
Dave Flower

A lot of people are bidding 2D but surely if you want to show this as a
good hand with diamonds the best response is 3H.

Personally however I would bid 5D. There is too big a chance that the
oppo can make 4H or 4S and if they can't (or even if they can) 5D will
often make so let them guess at a high level.