Discussion:
another nasty hand for the novice
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-07-26 07:48:04 UTC
Permalink
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.

She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).

NS vuln (MPs)

A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983

N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?

West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.

I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2019-07-26 09:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are
making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other
one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
West is easily strong enough for a reverse bid. She is forced to
the three level, however, but I think that shouldn't scare her.
She is competing with a North who shows 10-15 and a South who
just has enough to support. I think 3H is a fair bid. The spades
are too short for a double.

Partner can't have more than two clubs and doesn't support
diamonds. He is bound to have the majors.
--
/Bertel
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-26 19:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
If strong NT is in effect, then this hand shows why you have to pinch your nose and open 1NT.

If weak NT is in effect, the second-round double should show strong NT values, while pass should show minimum, unbalanced. This is the downside of weak NT, but you have to pinch your nose and double. You may end up in 3S, but that's weak NT life.

Carl
Will in New Haven
2019-07-26 20:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
What would scare me about making a Negative Double with the East hand is that partner might leave it in or bid NT. However, I double.
--
Will in Deerfield Beach
Bruce Evans
2019-07-27 11:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This
hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because
I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making
a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't
defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do
you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East
bids 3S?
I'm sure West should not not stretch to a double even over 2C.
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
What would scare me about making a Negative Double with the East hand is
that partner might leave it in or bid NT. However, I double.
I'm sure East should make a negative double, and East has an even safer
balancing double of 3C. It would be scary for West to take this as a
penalty double and pass, but 3C is down on a diamond ruff.

The unsoundness of the 2C overcall is shown by 5 card support (worth
4 or 5 tricks -- 2 for covering spade losers and 2 or 3 for covering
trump losers) not being enough to make 3C.

Bruce
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-07-27 13:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Evans
The unsoundness of the 2C overcall is shown by 5 card support (worth
4 or 5 tricks -- 2 for covering spade losers and 2 or 3 for covering
trump losers) not being enough to make 3C.
Bruce
If you think that overcall is unsound, you should see the much worse one she got against her which nailed her a near bottom.

Game all:

N E S W
P 1NT P P
2D AP

The 2D was bid on this:

J7
952
AK843
T52

Making nine tricks thanks to DJTxx opposite, a 2-2 break, and three honor cards onside. The room is in 1NT by East, all but one making. This just about sums up Horsham bridge club, there are several people who bid on garbage and get rewarded for it, which can put a dent in your scorecard.
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-27 22:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bruce Evans
The unsoundness of the 2C overcall is shown by 5 card support (worth
4 or 5 tricks -- 2 for covering spade losers and 2 or 3 for covering
trump losers) not being enough to make 3C.
Bruce
If you think that overcall is unsound, you should see the much worse one she got against her which nailed her a near bottom.
N E S W
P 1NT P P
2D AP
J7
952
AK843
T52
Making nine tricks thanks to DJTxx opposite, a 2-2 break, and three honor cards onside. The room is in 1NT by East, all but one making. This just about sums up Horsham bridge club, there are several people who bid on garbage and get rewarded for it, which can put a dent in your scorecard.
That's not an overcall, it's protection. Opponents have stopped in 1NT
so they have about 23 max so you are entitled to play partner for 10.
It's also good tactics to get them out of 1NT and it's not rubber when
you have to pay money for mistakes or teams where you want to avoid
losing the match on a part-score hand. It's matchpoints where it's only
a bottom so get right into them!
This is an obvious enough 2D protect especially in a club setting where
they won't double. If you were NV, it would be a very distinct mistake
not to do it.
Remember, the game is not about making contracts, it is about
manipulating the number which is going on the score sheet.

doug
Bruce Evans
2019-07-28 09:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bruce Evans
The unsoundness of the 2C overcall is shown by 5 card support (worth
4 or 5 tricks -- 2 for covering spade losers and 2 or 3 for covering
trump losers) not being enough to make 3C.
If you think that overcall is unsound, you should see the much worse
one she got against her which nailed her a near bottom.
A near top?
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
N E S W
P 1NT P P
2D AP
J7
952
AK843
T52
Making nine tricks thanks to DJTxx opposite, a 2-2 break, and three
honor cards onside. The room is in 1NT by East, all but one making.
This just about sums up Horsham bridge club, there are several people
who bid on garbage and get rewarded for it, which can put a dent in your
scorecard.
That's not an overcall, it's protection. Opponents have stopped in 1NT
so they have about 23 max so you are entitled to play partner for 10.
It's also good tactics to get them out of 1NT and it's not rubber when
you have to pay money for mistakes or teams where you want to avoid
losing the match on a part-score hand. It's matchpoints where it's only
a bottom so get right into them!
This is an obvious enough 2D protect especially in a club setting where
they won't double. If you were NV, it would be a very distinct mistake
not to do it.
Remember, the game is not about making contracts, it is about
manipulating the number which is going on the score sheet.
Also, since 2D found a fit and both sides apparently have about 20
HCP, it was an error to not protect over it. Both opener and responder
have only 2 diamonds, so have ideal shape for a takeout double. Since
2D was in balancing position, opener is not in balancing position, so
it is a bit risky but possibly right to make a takeout double (and
certainly too risky to bid a 4 card major or 5 card club suit). Then
partner is in balancing position and has an easy takeout double with
about 6+ HCP, or should bid a 4 card major if not playing takeout
doubles.

This should be just the start of the auction. The opponents have a 9
card fit and should normally bid 3D over your 2 of a major or 2C (they
probably should have bid it on the previous round to make it harder
for you). Advancer apparently has about 13 HCP to go with 4 card
support, so should expect to make 3D, but wouldn't be so sure about
defending 2 of a major doubled for a larger plus score). Since their
fit is 9 cards, it might be right to protect again over 3D, but 3 of
a major is probably too high, so you now have to decide whether to
double for penalties (and agree if further doubles are for penalties).
If the field is not too bad, then I think it is right to double if
you have at least 20 HCP. This is close, so only double for penalties
if you are sure that you have more than 20 HCP, or good defense.

Bruce
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-27 22:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....


N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.

N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option

Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.

doug
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-28 00:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-28 04:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?

d
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-28 12:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.

The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner

Carl
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-28 22:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-29 10:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
No.

Opener will learn of the defensive strength when responder starts doubling.

When instead responder enters the auction at the 3-level denying defensive strength, the opponents will know to start doubling.
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-29 22:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
No.
Opener will learn of the defensive strength when responder starts doubling.
Presumably you also think responder will know about opener's defensive
when he starts doubling.
This is a well known method.
It is called master-minding.
Post by ***@verizon.net
When instead responder enters the auction at the 3-level denying defensive strength, the opponents will know to start doubling.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-29 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
No.
Opener will learn of the defensive strength when responder starts doubling.
Presumably you also think responder will know about opener's defensive
when he starts doubling.
This is a well known method.
It is called master-minding.
Post by ***@verizon.net
When instead responder enters the auction at the 3-level denying defensive strength, the opponents will know to start doubling.
Only if you believe double is uncooperative penalty
Travis Crump
2019-08-04 01:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday.
This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion
because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are
making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one
that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what
do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what
if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i
should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
I would have assumed that double of 3C shows a trap pass of 2C. A ~8-10
count with 4 or 5 good clubs.
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-04 02:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday.
This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion
because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are
making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one
that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what
do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what
if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i
should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
I would have assumed that double of 3C shows a trap pass of 2C. A ~8-10
count with 4 or 5 good clubs.
There would have to be a lot of clubs in this pack since you know where
a minimum of 10 of them are.
Personally, I play very few penalty doubles (at low levels, only after
partner has opened a preempt or if they have opened a weak NT and even
then the next double is take out [VTP]).
Travis Crump
2019-08-04 16:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday.
This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion
because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
I would have assumed that double of 3C shows a trap pass of 2C. A ~8-10
count with 4 or 5 good clubs.
There would have to be a lot of clubs in this pack since you know where
a minimum of 10 of them are.
Personally, I play very few penalty doubles (at low levels, only after
partner has opened a preempt or if they have opened a weak NT and even
then the next double is take out [VTP]).
Ah, the old partner can figure it out based on their hand. That never
goes badly.
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-04 21:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday.
This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion
because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
I would have assumed that double of 3C shows a trap pass of 2C. A ~8-10
count with 4 or 5 good clubs.
There would have to be a lot of clubs in this pack since you know where
a minimum of 10 of them are.
Personally, I play very few penalty doubles (at low levels, only after
partner has opened a preempt or if they have opened a weak NT and even
then the next double is take out [VTP]).
Ah, the old partner can figure it out based on their hand. That never
goes badly.
You're being silly and perhaps insulting.
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something else
(e.g. game try).
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
Eddie Grove
2019-08-04 22:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something
else (e.g. game try).
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
I've been playing against robots recently that I think are supposed to
be using standard French methods, and I think they go completely
overboard in terms of takeout doubles.

What's mainstream in Oz for the second double in the auction 1C-X-1S-X ?


Eddie
Travis Crump
2019-08-05 05:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddie Grove
Post by Douglas Newlands
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something
else (e.g. game try).
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
I've been playing against robots recently that I think are supposed to
be using standard French methods, and I think they go completely
overboard in terms of takeout doubles.
What's mainstream in Oz for the second double in the auction 1C-X-1S-X ?
Eddie
I've(ACBL) had more advanced partners swear the second double is
penalty, but most people seem to play it as takeout. I tend to avoid it
altogether knowing it is ambiguous unless you've had a lot of discussion
with your partner.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-06 20:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Eddie Grove
Post by Douglas Newlands
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something
else (e.g. game try).
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
I've been playing against robots recently that I think are supposed to
be using standard French methods, and I think they go completely
overboard in terms of takeout doubles.
What's mainstream in Oz for the second double in the auction 1C-X-1S-X ?
Eddie
I've(ACBL) had more advanced partners swear the second double is
penalty, but most people seem to play it as takeout. I tend to avoid it
altogether knowing it is ambiguous unless you've had a lot of discussion
with your partner.
if they mean that it shows multiple trump tricks, how did they plan to handle jump-advances to the first double?

Carl
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-05 06:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddie Grove
Post by Douglas Newlands
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something
else (e.g. game try).
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
I've been playing against robots recently that I think are supposed to
be using standard French methods, and I think they go completely
overboard in terms of takeout doubles.
What's mainstream in Oz for the second double in the auction 1C-X-1S-X ?
Values and not 4 hearts I expect.
Nobody makes that psyche anymore it seems; the PC crowd have killed it off.
The other thing is that the double is largely ignored.
The (old?) idea of being limited by the failure to redouble seems dead.
Anyway nobody ever knows what they are doing after XX!

doug
Travis Crump
2019-08-05 05:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by Travis Crump
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday.
This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion
because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
I would have assumed that double of 3C shows a trap pass of 2C. A ~8-10
count with 4 or 5 good clubs.
There would have to be a lot of clubs in this pack since you know where
a minimum of 10 of them are.
Personally, I play very few penalty doubles (at low levels, only after
partner has opened a preempt or if they have opened a weak NT and even
then the next double is take out [VTP]).
Ah, the old partner can figure it out based on their hand. That never
goes badly.
You're being silly and perhaps insulting.
Doubles are take out except for a few places where they are defined as
penalty (after a preempt or we have found a major fit) or something else
(e.g. game try).
I am not so much disagreeing with this as saying this is one of those
few places.
Post by Douglas Newlands
To get a penalty double, partner mostly has to convert a take out double.
This is what a trap pass is. East passed 2C hoping their partner would
reopen with a takeout double. But this was thwarted because partner
needs a significantly better hand to make a takeout double in direct
position at the 3 level than in balancing at the 2 level.
Post by Douglas Newlands
It is very mainstream here.
In fact, in Oz, having low level penalty doubles is a pre-alert.
Low level penalty doubles are alerted in ACBL too. The three level isn't
particularly low level, and this mainly applies to the first round of
bidding. The examples in the ACBL alert pamphlet are all the first round
of bidding[though one is a double of an opening 3 bid]. I tried looking
in BWS and some bridge books[I don't have any, though there are some,
specifically on doubles], and couldn't find this auction discussed.
Fred.
2019-08-07 16:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.

I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-07 18:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.

The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.

Carl
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-07 22:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 1D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Your assertion that, if I do more bidding that will alert the opponents
to their extra unbid strength rather than making them think we have more
strength and they have less strength, seems irrational.

Nonetheless, there is a danger that each time we bid, one of them takes
the nudge and bids once more. Although they make a string of non-forcing
(and indeed non-inviting) bids, beginners have a tendency to bid major
games through some perceived momentum in such auctions.
It's not relevant in the hand being discussed though.

doug
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-08 19:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 1D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Your assertion that, if I do more bidding that will alert the opponents
to their extra unbid strength rather than making them think we have more
strength and they have less strength, seems irrational.
Nonetheless, there is a danger that each time we bid, one of them takes
the nudge and bids once more. Although they make a string of non-forcing
(and indeed non-inviting) bids, beginners have a tendency to bid major
games through some perceived momentum in such auctions.
It's not relevant in the hand being discussed though.
doug
The opposite. You play that the delayed double guarantees severe weakness.

Your perception is distorted by the impossible strength of opener.

Here again is why it's impossible. If 1NT would have been weak, then the 1D opener's pass in round 2 guarantees an unbalanced minimum hand.

If 1NT would have been strong then opener made the (irreversible) decision that their hand is too strong. Good judgment or bad, opener is stuck with it. So they can't pass over 3C.

Carl
Fred.
2019-08-08 18:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.

The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.

My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-08 19:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."

The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.

Carl
Fred.
2019-08-09 15:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
The debate was not over whether or not the hand was worth a negative
double offensively. It certainly is. The view Douglas and I share
is that the hand fails to be worth a double defensively.

I'm not overly critical of a negative double on the hand at match points,
but it faces the downside risk that we may lose the board when partner looks
to me for a defensive trick, but instead loses one to one of my long suits.

Note that Douglas and I are not the only ones nervous about a penalty
pass from opener.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-10 00:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
The debate was not over whether or not the hand was worth a negative
double offensively. It certainly is. The view Douglas and I share
is that the hand fails to be worth a double defensively.
I'm not overly critical of a negative double on the hand at match points,
but it faces the downside risk that we may lose the board when partner looks
to me for a defensive trick, but instead loses one to one of my long suits.
Note that Douglas and I are not the only ones nervous about a penalty
pass from opener.
Fred.
I seem to be the only one to notice that when 3C is passed around to them, the opponents are marked to be missing a game! Opener has guaranteed to have less than 15 hcp. The only reason to doubt that is that the opponents have stopped bidding. Are they Meckwell or something?

So you guys want a re-opening double that not only gives them a chance to correct their error, but helps them in the play.

Carl
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-10 01:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
The debate was not over whether or not the hand was worth a negative
double offensively. It certainly is. The view Douglas and I share
is that the hand fails to be worth a double defensively.
I'm not overly critical of a negative double on the hand at match points,
but it faces the downside risk that we may lose the board when partner looks
to me for a defensive trick, but instead loses one to one of my long suits.
Note that Douglas and I are not the only ones nervous about a penalty
pass from opener.
Fred.
I seem to be the only one to notice that when 3C is passed around to them, the opponents are marked to be missing a game! Opener has guaranteed to have less than 15 hcp. The only reason to doubt that is that the opponents have stopped bidding. Are they Meckwell or something?
What's with the Meckwell comment?
This is clearly a low level club game - just look at the hands and bidding!

Your comment about the opponents being marked as missing game is just
nonsense in this context. They are already past their last making
contract (2C=) and we haven't yet reached the making 4H.
Post by ***@verizon.net
So you guys want a re-opening double that not only gives them a chance to correct their error, but helps them in the play.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-11 15:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
The debate was not over whether or not the hand was worth a negative
double offensively. It certainly is. The view Douglas and I share
is that the hand fails to be worth a double defensively.
I'm not overly critical of a negative double on the hand at match points,
but it faces the downside risk that we may lose the board when partner looks
to me for a defensive trick, but instead loses one to one of my long suits.
Note that Douglas and I are not the only ones nervous about a penalty
pass from opener.
Fred.
I seem to be the only one to notice that when 3C is passed around to them, the opponents are marked to be missing a game! Opener has guaranteed to have less than 15 hcp. The only reason to doubt that is that the opponents have stopped bidding. Are they Meckwell or something?
What's with the Meckwell comment?
This is clearly a low level club game - just look at the hands and bidding!
Your comment about the opponents being marked as missing game is just
nonsense in this context. They are already past their last making
contract (2C=) and we haven't yet reached the making 4H.
Post by ***@verizon.net
So you guys want a re-opening double that not only gives them a chance to correct their error, but helps them in the play.
I'm talking about the auction 1D - 2C - P - 3C ; P - P - P - ? . With West's hand, the opponents are certain to have missed a game. Why is that so hard?

Carl
Will in New Haven
2019-08-11 20:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
The debate was not over whether or not the hand was worth a negative
double offensively. It certainly is. The view Douglas and I share
is that the hand fails to be worth a double defensively.
I'm not overly critical of a negative double on the hand at match points,
but it faces the downside risk that we may lose the board when partner looks
to me for a defensive trick, but instead loses one to one of my long suits.
Note that Douglas and I are not the only ones nervous about a penalty
pass from opener.
Fred.
I too am nervous about a penalty pass from opener but I still double.
--
Will in Deerfield Beach
https://sites.google.com/site/grreference/
Fred.
2019-08-09 16:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.

QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx

The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.

The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.

The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.

I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-11 21:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead

QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x

Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.

Who would not double 2C with this?

Carl
Fred.
2019-08-18 22:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.

If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.

If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.

Fred.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-19 10:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.
If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.
If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.
Fred.
Fred.
I do not believe you would pass. You have no reason to think you have no SLAM.

And no you can never catch up. Because your partner will also not believe you would pass.

Carl
Fred.
2019-08-19 12:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.
If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.
If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.
Fred.
Fred.
I do not believe you would pass. You have no reason to think you have no SLAM.
And no you can never catch up. Because your partner will also not believe you would pass.
Carl
I promise that if I have you for a partner I will double.
Other partners will believe that when I make the delayed
double I have the offensive strength to commit to the 3-
level.

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-19 19:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.
If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.
If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.
Fred.
Fred.
I do not believe you would pass. You have no reason to think you have no SLAM.
And no you can never catch up. Because your partner will also not believe you would pass.
Carl
I promise that if I have you for a partner I will double.
Other partners will believe that when I make the delayed
double I have the offensive strength to commit to the 3-
level.
Fred.
Trouble is, you won't have the chance. If partner has, say

x
AKxx
AKxxxx
Ax

(good play for 6H opposite original hand, without major jacks)

they will have bid so strongly in front of you that you will have no descriptive encouraging call.

Or the opponent to your left is about to bid 5C.

Carl
Fred.
2019-08-20 19:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.
If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.
If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.
Fred.
Fred.
I do not believe you would pass. You have no reason to think you have no SLAM.
And no you can never catch up. Because your partner will also not believe you would pass.
Carl
I promise that if I have you for a partner I will double.
Other partners will believe that when I make the delayed
double I have the offensive strength to commit to the 3-
level.
Fred.
Trouble is, you won't have the chance. If partner has, say
x
AKxx
AKxxxx
Ax
(good play for 6H opposite original hand, without major jacks)
they will have bid so strongly in front of you that you will have no descriptive encouraging call.
Or the opponent to your left is about to bid 5C.
Carl
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.

BTW, I am genuinely curious how best to bid the example you give after:

1D (2C) X (5C)

when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does

1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H

promise both majors in the responding hand?

Fred.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-20 22:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
Other options....
N E S W
P 1D
2C X X instead of pass will work.
It's light on hcp but one should feel the urge
but probably resist it.
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C P
P X seems auto if it gets to that option
Of course, a real south might bid 4C rather than 3C.
doug
it cannot be right for the double of 3C after passing 2C to mean "i should have doubled 2C, but i was chicken."
X of 2C implies defensive values, which you don't have, as well as
playing values.It's initially 8-11 but may be stronger.
After you have passed, you are doubling 3C only on playing values.
What do you think the double of 3C means?
d
Only the opponents need to know if you have defensive values.
No, partner needs to know; that is how to handle competitive auctions
and know when it's time to stop bidding and start doubling.
Post by ***@verizon.net
The method you assume for negative double helps them and doesn't help your partner
The method I assume is the basic method in all textbooks.
What is your method?
The only 21st Century textbook I have on competitive bidding is Klinger
& Kambites, _Understanding the Contested Auction_, Cassell, 2001. On
page 30 they basically agree with you if responder has only one major
and may have to pull to 3D. However, when responder has 4 cards
in each major, they recommend doubling with as few as little 5 HCP.
I suspect that this update is largely in response to the increased
frequency of 2C overcalls of 2D where partnerships need to focus on
their offensive values to keep from getting robbed blind. At match
points I might even double with the cited hand given a partner I
didn't fully trust to reopen with a double on the intermediate balanced
hand.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the delayed double here is for
takeout. Even with fewer HCP in the responding hand the board
still likely to have 17 total tricks and we should compete when
non-vulnerable at match points.
Fred.
You are considering only the risk of declaring with so little strength.
The real risk is alerting each opponent to undisclosed strength for his partner and mapping out the play of the hand.
Carl
Lots of MPs and imps hinge on partner's decisions whether to
play or defend. Many of the advances in competitive bidding have been
directed at improving these decisions. This makes me think that in
expert judgement the benefit of improving partners' knowledge of the
competitive situation generally outweighs the cost of informing the opponents.
The time to conceal information from partner is when you know that
the opponents are likely to make better use of it than partner. You
haven't demonstrated that this applies to negative doubles after 1D-(2C)
in general, or that this is a special case where the negative double should
be shaded to conceal information from the opponents.
My own experience is that in competitive situations where as responder
I've first passed to limit my hand and then backed into the auction
I've generally done pretty well.
Fred.
"First passed to limit my hand." Usually when people say that they do not mean "guaranteed very little high card strength."
The extra playing strength will *usually* more than compensate for a king in the opponent's suit.
Carl
I want you to contrast responder's hand in the post to
what I think Klinger and Kambites would consider a
minimum negative double in this situation.
QTxx
QJxx
xxx
xx
The first point is that it is now or never. I wanted
to respond 1H on the hand, and LOTT suggests that we
will likely be OK in 2H, 2S or 2D, but the hand certainly
doesn't have the offensive strength to back into the
auction at the 3-level.
The second point is that if opener is short in the majors
the hand will likely take one of its queens on defense.
The posted responding hand does have the playing strength
to come in at the 3-level, but. because of the length of its
major is worth less on defense.
I think opener needs the information I give by bidding these
two hands differently. You appear to disagree, believing that
opener needs this information less than the opponents do. I'm
curious what evidence you have that your belief is true.
Fred.
That is the wrong comparison. Consider instead
QJxxx
QJxxx
xx
x
Now the jacks do not appreciatively add to the defensive usefulness.
Who would not double 2C with this?
Carl
Again, you are looking at the offensive values only.
If my negative double suggests a defensive trick, the
two jacks do not add onw and the 5th card in each suit
makes you unlikely to win a trick on defense. Thus,
despite the offensive strength of the hand responder
passes expecting opener to reopen if LHO passes. If
LHO raises to 3C responder can reopen with a delayed
double.
If partner will not expect defense for your double then
you are free to make a negative double on any of the hands
mentioned, just as you are free to open KQJx-QJx-QJx-QJx
a strong notrump with only 1QT.
Fred.
Fred.
I do not believe you would pass. You have no reason to think you have no SLAM.
And no you can never catch up. Because your partner will also not believe you would pass.
Carl
I promise that if I have you for a partner I will double.
Other partners will believe that when I make the delayed
double I have the offensive strength to commit to the 3-
level.
Fred.
Trouble is, you won't have the chance. If partner has, say
x
AKxx
AKxxxx
Ax
(good play for 6H opposite original hand, without major jacks)
they will have bid so strongly in front of you that you will have no descriptive encouraging call.
Or the opponent to your left is about to bid 5C.
Carl
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.

Carl
Co Wiersma
2019-08-22 11:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-22 13:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
trouble hand.

HOW WOULD DOUBLE MAKE IT ANY LESS TROUBLE?? A weasel call to transfer responsibility.

Carl
Co Wiersma
2019-08-22 14:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
trouble hand.
HOW WOULD DOUBLE MAKE IT ANY LESS TROUBLE?? A weasel call to transfer responsibility.
Carl
Hmm you may have a point there
Still there are many hands like that
Axxx
AKx
xxxx
xx
and
AKxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
are bid more smooth with double I think

Co Wiersma
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-22 13:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
choices:

lie about the spade 2 by bidding 2S

lie about the diamond 2 by bidding 3C (or 2D if forcing)

lie about the heart 2 by doubling

that's why people make max overcalls

Carl
Douglas Newlands
2019-08-22 23:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
lie about the spade 2 by bidding 2S
lie about the diamond 2 by bidding 3C (or 2D if forcing)
lie about the heart 2 by doubling
that's why people make max overcalls
One can also abandon better minor and play 1C is 2+cards
and 1D is 5+cards with the only exception being 4=4=4=1.
i.e. a 5542 system or even 5551 if that is to your taste.
The former seems a common approach where I play.

Now one can raise diamonds either via a natural raise or a cue raise
as well as double.

doug
Fred.
2019-09-08 16:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Newlands
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Co Wiersma
Post by ***@verizon.net
Post by Fred.
Carl, playing a negative double focusing entirely on offense may
be reasonable at IMP scoring where slams are very important. But,
here, at match points critical choices whether to play or defend at the
part score level come up much more often than hands with a potential
for slam facing even a very nice 5 or 6 point double.
1D (2C) X (5C)
when the negative double may be either both majors or one major with
extras and diamond support. Does 5H give a choice of slams? Or does
1D (2C) X (5C)
6C (pass) 6H
promise both majors in the responding hand?
Fred.
It is unplayable for the double not to show both majors.
Carl
Then what would you bid with a hand like
Axxx
AKx
xxx
xxx
or so?
lie about the spade 2 by bidding 2S
lie about the diamond 2 by bidding 3C (or 2D if forcing)
lie about the heart 2 by doubling
that's why people make max overcalls
One can also abandon better minor and play 1C is 2+cards
and 1D is 5+cards with the only exception being 4=4=4=1.
i.e. a 5542 system or even 5551 if that is to your taste.
The former seems a common approach where I play.
Now one can raise diamonds either via a natural raise or a cue raise
as well as double.
doug
What also works fairly well in practice is to open 1C when 3-3
in the minors unless the diamonds are very much stronger than the
clubs, then act as if the system were 5543. I can't recall a disaster
from assuming that opener had 4 diamonds.

Fred.

Hotzenplotz
2019-07-29 04:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
There is interesting advice in this thread. I would ignore the advice from Bruce. Good players strive to overcall 1D with 2D as it take away so much room. This is not an unsound overcall.
East does not have a neg X as this hand is too weak. West should x. I dislike the everse into 2H with this shape.
Hotzenplotz
2019-07-29 04:26:57 UTC
Permalink
I meant overcall 1D with 2C.
I would bid 2D in the passout seat against 1NT. Agree with The Black Douglas here.
Douglas Newlands
2019-07-29 06:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hotzenplotz
I meant overcall 1D with 2C.
I would bid 2D in the passout seat against 1NT. Agree with The Black Douglas here.
All Douglas's are black. The name is an Anglicisation of two
Gaelic words, dhu and glas.
Dhu is black.
QED

d
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-29 12:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hotzenplotz
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
The novice I'm helping out had another torid evening yesterday. This hand was one of her near bottoms, and would like your opinion because I'm not sure whether or not she could have done better.
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract (including 4H), and the only other one that wasn't defended 5C (undoubled) four off.
I'm not sure if West can quite stretch to a double over 3C, what do you think? It works wonderfully if East then bids 3H, but what if East bids 3S?
There is interesting advice in this thread. I would ignore the advice from Bruce. Good players strive to overcall 1D with 2D as it take away so much room. This is not an unsound overcall.
East does not have a neg X as this hand is too weak. West should x. I dislike the everse into 2H with this shape.
you don't like to reverse with this hand. Neither do I.

But dealer committed himself to reversing when they did not open strong NT.

Carl
Jean Pierre Fontenille
2019-07-31 05:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Open 1nt . here is the error.
After that...

If u dont play strong nt...
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-07-31 16:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Pierre Fontenille
Open 1nt . here is the error.
After that...
If u dont play strong nt...
If you don't play srong NT, passing at 2nd turn guarantees unbalanced minimum.

Carl
KWSchneider
2019-08-05 23:29:27 UTC
Permalink
1) West has a 1N opening
2) 2C overcall is perfect - best overcall to stretch over a 1D opening. And this was sound. Did it’s job and prevented East from coming in at the 1level.
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-08-06 07:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
1) West has a 1N opening
2) 2C overcall is perfect - best overcall to stretch over a 1D opening. And this was sound. Did it’s job and prevented East from coming in at the 1level.
EW were playing a weak NT.
Co Wiersma
2019-08-06 14:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by KWSchneider
1) West has a 1N opening
2) 2C overcall is perfect - best overcall to stretch over a 1D opening. And this was sound. Did it’s job and prevented East from coming in at the 1level.
Not only takes the 2C bid opponents bidding space
Also the hand has 3 quick tricks
both in defence as in offence
And it has promising shape

Co Wiersma
Steve Willner
2019-08-19 20:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
Americans would probably write "pickup partner."
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract
As others have mentioned, you have to agree on what opener's double
shows. For most, it's takeout, but some weak-NT players use it to show
a strong NT or better with any shape. Absent that agreement, West's
pass seems normal.

The main problem here was East's passing with 5-5 majors and shortness
in clubs. East has to find a way to enter the auction with that shape.
Whether it should be an immediate double of 2C, a later double of 3C, or
even a 4C cue bid over 3C is unclear, but East has to do one of those
(or perhaps something else I'm missing). That's easier in a weak NT
context because West won't have a balanced 12-14 (or whatever) hand.
judyorcarl@verizon.net
2019-08-20 22:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Willner
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
She was playing with a scratch partner (another beginner).
Americans would probably write "pickup partner."
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
NS vuln (MPs)
A954
8
J62
AK642
K3 QT872
AJ65 Q7432
AKT83 74
Q5 7
J6
KT9
Q95
JT983
N E S W
P 1D
2C P 3C ?
West passed and ended up with 2 out of 14 MPs, because most are making a red suit contract
As others have mentioned, you have to agree on what opener's double
shows. For most, it's takeout, but some weak-NT players use it to show
a strong NT or better with any shape. Absent that agreement, West's
pass seems normal.
The main problem here was East's passing with 5-5 majors and shortness
in clubs. East has to find a way to enter the auction with that shape.
Whether it should be an immediate double of 2C, a later double of 3C, or
even a 4C cue bid over 3C is unclear, but East has to do one of those
(or perhaps something else I'm missing). That's easier in a weak NT
context because West won't have a balanced 12-14 (or whatever) hand.
Once opener has decided that his hand is too strong for strong NT, he is 100% committed not to pass at 2nd turn.

Carl
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