Would you consider a bid ?

[Lorne]

IMP scoring, nobody vul:

(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?

Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
would you consider a bid with:

74
AQ85
10975
1097

[Charles Brenner]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

No. With another king I'd consider before passing but with this hand, no such thought.

[t***@att.net]

No. I have nothing extra.

[Tom]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

Nope. Partner is limited and have to double first to have a big enough
hand.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

No. What is there to bid with this hand, weak with no support.

[ais523]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

It's always worth thinking about whether there's a bid or not, but in
this case I don't think there is. You're unlikely to have the balance of
points, and there's a high risk of a misfit given your four diamonds, so
you really don't want to go any higher than 2S. Partner's likely to
have a decent spade suit, so you can tolerate playing in the probable
5:2 fit.

It's certainly /possible/ that 3H or even 4H or 4S is the right contract
to play in, but the odds aren't high enough to be worth bidding it
(and if your partner had both majors they'd have been more likely to
double than to bid spades).

Besides, if you were bidding, what would you bid? In many systems, 3H
would be forcing, or at least stronger than what you have here, and 2N
would show a diamond stop. Both 3D and 2N could potentially have
conventional meanings (there's a system I'm working on in which 2N
would ask partner to bid hearts or clubs if they had them and otherwise
return to 3S), and if there's one that fit the hand I might be tempted,
but probably not; the odds of an extra undertrick are probably higher
than the odds of improving the contract.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

It's always worth thinking about whether there's a bid or not, but in
this case I don't think there is. You're unlikely to have the balance of
points, and there's a high risk of a misfit given your four diamonds, so

You have 4 diamonds so partner has 0 or 1 so surely this means your
cards are more likely to be well placed rather than being a misfit.

Post by ais523
you really don't want to go any higher than 2S. Partner's likely to
have a decent spade suit, so you can tolerate playing in the probable
5:2 fit.

You may overcall with 5 spades here but most of us like 6 with a passed
partner and an unlimited opener lurking.

Post by ais523
It's certainly /possible/ that 3H or even 4H or 4S is the right contract
to play in, but the odds aren't high enough to be worth bidding it
(and if your partner had both majors they'd have been more likely to
double than to bid spades).
Besides, if you were bidding, what would you bid? In many systems, 3H
would be forcing, or at least stronger than what you have here, and 2N

You have already passed so you can't have values and 5 hearts so this is
a stopper trying for 3N?

Post by ais523
would show a diamond stop. Both 3D and 2N could potentially have
conventional meanings (there's a system I'm working on in which 2N
would ask partner to bid hearts or clubs if they had them and otherwise
return to 3S), and if there's one that fit the hand I might be tempted,
but probably not; the odds of an extra undertrick are probably higher

It's imps so an extra undertrick is not a great concern as long as there
is no double.

Post by ais523
than the odds of improving the contract.

[ais523]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

It's always worth thinking about whether there's a bid or not, but in
this case I don't think there is. You're unlikely to have the balance of
points, and there's a high risk of a misfit given your four diamonds, so

You have 4 diamonds so partner has 0 or 1 so surely this means your
cards are more likely to be well placed rather than being a misfit.

If both you and your partner had short diamonds, then a fit in one of
the other suits would be almost certain, making hearts and clubs
more worth exploring. With some of your cards "wasted" in diamonds, the
odds of a fit in an unbid suit are smaller.

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523
you really don't want to go any higher than 2S. Partner's likely to
have a decent spade suit, so you can tolerate playing in the probable
5:2 fit.

You may overcall with 5 spades here but most of us like 6 with a passed
partner and an unlimited opener lurking.

I was picturing something like AKJxx, i.e. a suit that might not
necessarily be more than 5 cards but is strong enough to hold its own
even if the partner doesn't have much to help it.

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523
It's certainly /possible/ that 3H or even 4H or 4S is the right contract
to play in, but the odds aren't high enough to be worth bidding it
(and if your partner had both majors they'd have been more likely to
double than to bid spades).
Besides, if you were bidding, what would you bid? In many systems, 3H
would be forcing, or at least stronger than what you have here, and 2N

You have already passed so you can't have values and 5 hearts so this is
a stopper trying for 3N?

Shape-showing looking for a better contract, either 3N or 4H. I'd
expect it to show more like 10 points than 6, though.

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ais523
would show a diamond stop. Both 3D and 2N could potentially have
conventional meanings (there's a system I'm working on in which 2N
would ask partner to bid hearts or clubs if they had them and otherwise
return to 3S), and if there's one that fit the hand I might be tempted,
but probably not; the odds of an extra undertrick are probably higher
than the odds of improving the contract.

It's imps so an extra undertrick is not a great concern as long as there
is no double.

I missed that it was imps (my brain was in matchhpoint mode). In that
case, if you have a suitable bid for showing this sort of hand, it's
probably worth using. (That said, at imps, the focus is now on trying to
find a game, rather than trying to find the right suit. In a partscore
hand at imps, being in any remotely playable suit is sufficient, as
there won't be a large score swing for finding the right one unless
you get doubled in the wrong one. So if we think game's possible, that
might be a reason to bid. If not, it's probably best to shut up in order
to reduce the chance that our bidding makes a misfit apparent to our
opponents and we get doubled in something that goes down 2.)

[Lorne]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P)  ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

Not surprised that pass is the common reply but partner has:

KQ109xx
Kxx
-
KQ8x

and 4S looks pretty good to me and 10 tricks were always made when
spades was the contract (4H also made but needed trumps 3-3).

The hand is nothing special for 2S given he is bidding in a situation
where there is little chance of escape if partner who could not bid over
1D has a real bust so I was wondering how much trouble raising to 3S
could get you into. He will usually have 6 of them and a good or very
good hand.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Lorne

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P)  ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

KQ109xx
Kxx
-
KQ8x
and 4S looks pretty good to me and 10 tricks were always made when
spades was the contract (4H also made but needed trumps 3-3).
The hand is nothing special for 2S given he is bidding in a situation
where there is little chance of escape if partner who could not bid over
1D has a real bust so I was wondering how much trouble raising to 3S
could get you into. He will usually have 6 of them and a good or very
good hand.

That is hard luck. How often does partner have a hand that cannot overcall at the one level, but can come in protectively at the two level and has a four loser hand? Perhaps he could have bid 3C over 2D, then you correct to 3S, then it is up to partner if he wants to bid 4S. It is easy to say double dummy though, but I would have overcalled spades the first time, then thought about bidding the clubs given the opps have a fit, therefore we also do.

[Lorne]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Lorne

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P)  ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

KQ109xx
Kxx
-
KQ8x
and 4S looks pretty good to me and 10 tricks were always made when
spades was the contract (4H also made but needed trumps 3-3).
The hand is nothing special for 2S given he is bidding in a situation
where there is little chance of escape if partner who could not bid over
1D has a real bust so I was wondering how much trouble raising to 3S
could get you into. He will usually have 6 of them and a good or very
good hand.

That is hard luck. How often does partner have a hand that cannot overcall at the one level, but can come in protectively at the two level and has a four loser hand? Perhaps he could have bid 3C over 2D, then you correct to 3S, then it is up to partner if he wants to bid 4S. It is easy to say double dummy though, but I would have overcalled spades the first time, then thought about bidding the clubs given the opps have a fit, therefore we also do.

You misread the auction - the 2S bidder bid at his first chance after
both oppo bid and you had passed over 1D with the 6 count I posted.

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Lorne

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P)  ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

KQ109xx
Kxx
-
KQ8x
and 4S looks pretty good to me and 10 tricks were always made when
spades was the contract (4H also made but needed trumps 3-3).
The hand is nothing special for 2S given he is bidding in a situation
where there is little chance of escape if partner who could not bid over
1D has a real bust so I was wondering how much trouble raising to 3S
could get you into. He will usually have 6 of them and a good or very
good hand.

That is hard luck. How often does a two level overcall have a four loser hand? It is unfortunate you didn't have enough spade support to raise to 3S, which partner would shurely raise to 4. Maybe partner could counsider bidding 3C over 2D, you correct to 3S, then partner bids 4 on the basis you have a doubleton and it is a question if whether you can cover one of his losers.

[Charles Brenner]

Post by Lorne

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P)  ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

KQ109xx
Kxx
-
KQ8x
and 4S looks pretty good to me and 10 tricks were always made when
spades was the contract (4H also made but needed trumps 3-3).
The hand is nothing special for 2S given he is bidding in a situation
where there is little chance of escape if partner who could not bid over
1D has a real bust so I was wondering how much trouble raising to 3S
could get you into. He will usually have 6 of them and a good or very
good hand.

You make a provocative argument to which I'll mention the unimaginative counters.

"And" is expecting a lot. If partner doesn't come in with 6 spades *or* a good hand you might be posting the opposite problem: the moderate hand with 6 spades passed and missed an obvious game opposite xxx,AQxx,xxxx,Kx.

As to "how much trouble?": How far wrong can it be to expect that raising on a six count with doubleton trump typically results in getting a trick too high?

[Steve Willner]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

Unlike everyone else, I consider this very close to a 2NT bid, at least
opposite my version of a 2S bid. I'd bid 2NT if the D-T were the J or
the C-T were the Q. (I decided this before reading any other messages.)
Opposite most people's 2S bid, though, it's a clear pass. My version
of 2S shows sound values; with less, I'd bid 3S or pass.

I think a 3H bid should be fit-showing, so that's not in the picture for me.

The actual hand opposite KQ109xx Kxx -- KQ8x is no surprise, and 4S is
good but not cold. There could easily have been one more loser, though,
say KQJxxx Kx x KQxx or similar. 4S is still far from hopeless, but
many players would overcall 2S on far weaker hands.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Lorne
(1D) P (2D) 2S
(P) ?
Oppo playing natural methods with weak NT so 1D promises 4 if 15+ points
but usually 5 if weaker unless 4441 shape, 2D promises 4+ and 5-9 pts,
74
AQ85
10975
1097

I'd _consider_ a bid. If we were vulnerable, I would bid 2NT because game is certainly possible. If we were playing the "I only overcalled, partner" system, I would not consider a bid.