Defending against Polish Club

[p***@gmail.com]

This wild auction begins with a weak/strong 1C opening with a 1D
denial (7-HCP). Many Polish Club defenders will tend to bid passively
and pass the 1D until they find out whether the club is weak or strong
but I'm convinced that the better course is to get in as early and
cheaply as possible.

[Dealer "N"]
[Vulnerable "EW"]

[Result "7"]
{
S AKQJ42
H Q3
D AQJ8
C 9

S T876 +-------+ S 5
H AT984 | N | H KJ75
D 4 | W E | D KT7653
C K54 | S | C T8
+-------+

S 93
H 62
D 92
C AQJ7632

[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass

I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial. He allows West to get in
with a 1H overcall. North's spades are so good he would probably be
better off with a stronger 3S. East with shortness in spades bids
with daring even though vulnerable, but bidding 3H is worse than
futile so it is 4H or nothing. South bids wrongly again with 5C -- 4S
or maybe pass is a better choice -- and the result is a disaster. -800
for -13 IMPs. A lucky result for EW.


[Play "E"]
S5 S3 S6 SA
CT CJ CK C9
C8 S9 ST SK
H5 H2 HA H3
DK D2 D4 DJ
D3 D9 C4 D8
HK H6 HT HQ
HJ C2 H4 S2
D5 CA C5 S4

[Nick France]

Post by p***@gmail.com
This wild auction begins with a weak/strong 1C opening with a 1D
denial (7-HCP).  Many Polish Club defenders will tend to bid passively
and pass the 1D until they find out whether the club is weak or strong
but I'm convinced that the better course is to get in as early and
cheaply as possible.
[Dealer "N"]
[Vulnerable "EW"]
[Result "7"]
{
          S AKQJ42
          H Q3
          D AQJ8
          C 9
S T876     +-------+  S 5
H AT984    |   N   |  H KJ75
D 4        | W   E |  D KT7653
C K54      |   S   |  C T8
          +-------+
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.  He allows West to get in
with a 1H overcall.  North's spades are so good he would probably be
better off with a stronger 3S.  East with shortness in spades bids
with daring even though vulnerable, but bidding 3H is worse than
futile so it is 4H or nothing. South bids wrongly again with 5C -- 4S
or maybe pass is a better choice -- and the result is a disaster. -800
for -13 IMPs.  A lucky result for EW.
[Play "E"]
S5 S3 S6 SA
CT CJ CK C9
C8 S9 ST SK
H5 H2 HA H3
DK D2 D4 DJ
D3 D9 C4 D8
HK H6 HT HQ
HJ C2 H4 S2
D5 CA C5 S4

One hand proves nothing but I do agree with the concept of coming in
aggressively over a Polish 1C. I use the same defense against a
Polish 1C as I do over a normal strong 1C (i.e 1 level is exclusion, 2
level is don't, 1NT a one suited hand, double of minor is takeout).

The main thing in developing what to do over a Polish club is to
realize that the most common hand the opener has is a weak notrump
hand.

Nick France

[Michael Angelo Ravera]

Post by Nick France

Post by p***@gmail.com
This wild auction begins with a weak/strong 1C opening with a 1D
denial (7-HCP).  Many Polish Club defenders will tend to bid passively
and pass the 1D until they find out whether the club is weak or strong
but I'm convinced that the better course is to get in as early and
cheaply as possible.
[Dealer "N"]
[Vulnerable "EW"]
[Result "7"]
{
          S AKQJ42
          H Q3
          D AQJ8
          C 9
S T876     +-------+  S 5
H AT984    |   N   |  H KJ75
D 4        | W   E |  D KT7653
C K54      |   S   |  C T8
          +-------+
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.  He allows West to get in
with a 1H overcall.  North's spades are so good he would probably be
better off with a stronger 3S.  East with shortness in spades bids
with daring even though vulnerable, but bidding 3H is worse than
futile so it is 4H or nothing. South bids wrongly again with 5C -- 4S
or maybe pass is a better choice -- and the result is a disaster. -800
for -13 IMPs.  A lucky result for EW.
[Play "E"]
S5 S3 S6 SA
CT CJ CK C9
C8 S9 ST SK
H5 H2 HA H3
DK D2 D4 DJ
D3 D9 C4 D8
HK H6 HT HQ
HJ C2 H4 S2
D5 CA C5 S4

One hand proves nothing but I do agree with the concept of coming in
aggressively over a Polish 1C.  I use the same defense against a
Polish 1C as I do over a normal strong 1C (i.e 1 level is exclusion, 2
level is don't, 1NT a one suited hand, double of minor is takeout).
The main thing in developing what to do over a Polish club is to
realize that the most common hand the opener has is a weak notrump
hand.

If the most common Polish Club opener is, in fact, the weak 1NT hand,
then it it explains why DONT would work as a defense!

[Ron Johnson]

Post by Nick France
The main thing in developing what to do over a Polish club is to
realize that the most common hand the opener has is a weak notrump
hand.

From an old Chip Martel post:

The defense to the Polish club has three goals:

1) Be able to get into the auction to compete for a game or
partial when you have a decent hand

2) Get in on light hands to disrupt the auction for the other
side (this disruption can be effective against both the
weak NT and strog club hands. It will be very effective
when the 1C bidder is strong, since responder cannot
assume a strong hand).

(Bo-Yin notes that 2C and 2D overcalls of 1C are almost random. Shows
nothing more than a weakish hand and a 5 card suit -- RNJ)

3) Extract a penalty when the opponents have a weak NT opposite
a weak hand (particularly when you are at favorable).

The low level opening (1C) combined with the fact that
1C is forcing (so you can pass with some good hands),
allows you to do all 3 fairly effectively
if you structure your bids properly.

Bo-Yin also notes that he thinks that Martel/Stansby have
taken advantage of poor counter-measures by the Poles -- they're
pretty much unable to make MS pay for their adventures.

Quoting him now:

A simplicistic implementation of the above three design goals
would be

P no bid or a strong (16+) hand with long major or balanced,
or very very strong with unbalanced no major
X opening bid of 1C (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1D opening bid of 1D (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1M 8-15 with a 5-card suit
1N majors or minors, weak but not random
2m random overcalls with 0-12, 5+ cards
2M sound weak 2 bid

The strong 1N is shown by doubling 1C*-1D*-1M* (usually weak 3-4M)

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Ron Johnson

Post by Nick France
The main thing in developing what to do over a Polish club is to
realize that the most common hand the opener has is a weak notrump
hand.

1) Be able to get into the auction to compete for a game or
partial when you have a decent hand
2) Get in on light hands to disrupt the auction for the other
side (this disruption can be effective against both the
weak NT and strog club hands. It will be very effective
when the 1C bidder is strong, since responder cannot
assume a strong hand).
(Bo-Yin notes that 2C and 2D overcalls of 1C are almost random. Shows
nothing more than a weakish hand and a 5 card suit -- RNJ)
3) Extract a penalty when the opponents have a weak NT opposite
a weak hand (particularly when you are at favorable).
The low level opening (1C) combined with the fact that
1C is forcing (so you can pass with some good hands),
allows you to do all 3 fairly effectively
if you structure your bids properly.
Bo-Yin also notes that he thinks that Martel/Stansby have
taken advantage of poor counter-measures by the Poles -- they're
pretty much unable to make MS pay for their adventures.
A simplicistic implementation of the above three design goals
would be
P       no bid or a strong (16+) hand with long major or balanced,
        or very very strong with unbalanced no major
X       opening bid of 1C (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1D      opening bid of 1D (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1M      8-15 with a 5-card suit
1N      majors or minors, weak but not random
2m      random overcalls with 0-12, 5+ cards
2M      sound weak 2 bid
The strong 1N is shown by doubling 1C*-1D*-1M* (usually weak 3-4M)

That is quite clever and I think it would work. I particularly like
the idea of lots of 1N and 2 of a minor overcalls. This takes away
all the extra bidding room that gives Polish Club an advantage in
uncontested auctions and causes all sorts of trouble as is well known
to veterans of strong 2C opener bidding.

I play a lot of Polish Club with club players and they very seldom
take advantage of the weaknesses of the system on defense. They tend
to be quite passive when the opponent bids 1C. Everyone uses the 2D
overcall as Wilkosz (5-5 weak) which is a truly bad idea. To keep
your suits secret is exactly what you don't want.

There is some room for improvement in this defense though. One must
look at where the 1C bidder sits. If he is in first seat then my
overcalls would be fairly orthodox, then increasing in daring around
the circle. If he is in fourth seat and I'm a passed hand I'd go
wild. I particularly recall when I was in fourth seat with a
powerhouse and the bidding went

P P P 1C
3S

I knew he didn't have his bid, but what good did this do me? All I
could do was double to show the strong club. Partner with no suits
left it in, and my opponent holding a nice five card spade suit and
not much else lucked out and made it. He forced us to guess and we
guessed wrong. It was a good move on his part. Even if my 1C happens
to be is weak he is likely to be in the right place.

[Gerben Dirksen]

Post by Ron Johnson

Post by Nick France
The main thing in developing what to do over a Polish club is to
realize that the most common hand the opener has is a weak notrump
hand.

1) Be able to get into the auction to compete for a game or
partial when you have a decent hand
2) Get in on light hands to disrupt the auction for the other
side (this disruption can be effective against both the
weak NT and strog club hands. It will be very effective
when the 1C bidder is strong, since responder cannot
assume a strong hand).
(Bo-Yin notes that 2C and 2D overcalls of 1C are almost random. Shows
nothing more than a weakish hand and a 5 card suit -- RNJ)
3) Extract a penalty when the opponents have a weak NT opposite
a weak hand (particularly when you are at favorable).
The low level opening (1C) combined with the fact that
1C is forcing (so you can pass with some good hands),
allows you to do all 3 fairly effectively
if you structure your bids properly.
Bo-Yin also notes that he thinks that Martel/Stansby have
taken advantage of poor counter-measures by the Poles -- they're
pretty much unable to make MS pay for their adventures.
A simplicistic implementation of the above three design goals
would be
P no bid or a strong (16+) hand with long major or balanced,
or very very strong with unbalanced no major
X opening bid of 1C (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1D opening bid of 1D (12+ up) in sound-opening 2/1
1M 8-15 with a 5-card suit
1N majors or minors, weak but not random
2m random overcalls with 0-12, 5+ cards
2M sound weak 2 bid
The strong 1N is shown by doubling 1C*-1D*-1M* (usually weak 3-4M)

Might work, but I don't like playing the 2m-bids myself. Most of the
time they have a weak NT and then with 2m it's 4th seat that's
guessing, not 3rd. I play this pass also.

P = no bid or a strong (16+) hand with long major or balanced,
or very very strong with unbalanced no major
X = Overcall in Hearts
1D = Overcall in Spades
1H = 4H, 5+other, constructive
1S = 4S, 5+other, constructive
1N = Minor 1-suiter, constructive
2suit = Preempt in that suit, or 2-suiter in the next two suits
2N = 2-suiter, round or pointed

With a weak NT hand just pass throughout, with a strong NT hand Dbl
their 1C - 1D - 1M.

Gerben

[~|_ukasz]

Post by p***@gmail.com
S 93
H 62
D 92
C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.

~|_ukasz

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.  

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

Aha, right you are. I made that bid once and partner thought it was a
strong jump shift and went to slam. I've never seen anyone else bid
it.

[rhm]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.  

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse

So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?

Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by rhm

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
S 93
H 62
D 92
C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.

In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H 1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+ 1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass 2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass

[pgmer6809]

Post by p***@gmail.com
As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.

see http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000/sys/

aka Daniel's system page. Very nice set of links to ref material for
all kinds of systems. Including WJ2000 and WJ2005.
pgmer6809

[Player]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club.  It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids.  Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H      1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+   1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass      2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.
By the way do you realise that ~|_ukasz, (Slawinski), is one of the
greatest bidding theorists in the world today? I guess not

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
          S 93
          H 62
          D 92
          C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club.  It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids.  Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H      1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+   1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass      2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit. However most of my partners do not know it. The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC. I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.

Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system. Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes. I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

Post by Player
By the way do you realise that ~|_ukasz, (Slawinski), is  one of the
greatest bidding theorists in the world today? I guess not

[~|_ukasz]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H 1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+ 1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass 2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.

Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit. However most of my partners do not know it. The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC. I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system. Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes. I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.

There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.

Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.

~|_.

[Player]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club.  It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids.  Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H      1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+   1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass      2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit.  However most of my partners do not know it.  The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC.  I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system.  Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes.  I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

I have a copy of Nasz in English - fully detailed, if you want it. I
think there is one on Dan Neill's site as well, but it is not as
detailed as mine.

[rhm]

Post by Player

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club.  It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids.  Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H      1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+   1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass      2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit.  However most of my partners do not know it.  The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC.  I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system.  Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes.  I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

I have a copy of Nasz in English - fully detailed, if you want it. I
think there is one on Dan Neill's site as well, but it is not as
detailed as mine.

Yes, I would be interested.
If you can send me a copy I would appreciate that

Rainer Herrmann

[~|_ukasz]

Post by Player

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H 1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+ 1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass 2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit. However most of my partners do not know it. The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC. I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system. Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes. I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

I have a copy of Nasz in English - fully detailed, if you want it. I
think there is one on Dan Neill's site as well, but it is not as
detailed as mine.

Thanks for the info - Dan Neill's system page is great and there are
more translations of Polish systems there.

Send me a copy of "your" version, please. Thanks!
(lukasz/here_comes_the_a/atra.pl).

Or maybe - can you publish it somewhere (what about copyrights)?
Dan's lacks some key descriptions of system's philosophy.

~|_ukasz

[Player]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by Player

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club.  It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids.  Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H      1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+   1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass      2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit.  However most of my partners do not know it.  The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC.  I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system.  Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes.  I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

I have a copy of Nasz in English - fully detailed, if you want it. I
think there is one on Dan Neill's site as well, but it is not as
detailed as mine.

Thanks for the info - Dan Neill's system page is great and there are
more translations of Polish systems there.
Send me a copy of "your" version, please. Thanks!
(lukasz/here_comes_the_a/atra.pl).
Or maybe - can you publish it somewhere (what about copyrights)?
Dan's lacks some key descriptions of system's philosophy.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

My email is ronlelatlaopdrdotcom
Send an email to this address and i will send you what I have. This
includes Nasz as well as a fully worked version of Matula's system

[Douglas Newlands]

^^^^^
Yes he often is but how did you know???
No bottle of decent red is safe in his presence

Douglas,
Tasmania

[Player]

           ^^^^^
Yes he often is but how did you know???
No bottle of decent red is safe in his presence
Douglas,
Tasmania

Not that many decent reds in Laos, Douggie. Too hot!

[~|_ukasz]

Post by Douglas Newlands
^^^^^
Yes he often is but how did you know???
No bottle of decent red is safe in his presence

Apology for TB configured for polish newsgroups.
As my English is "as is"... could you be more specific
and explain your statement a bit? In return I offer some consultations
in Polish, esp. pronunciation (have you ever wanted
to say properly and easily Pszczoła or Skrzypczak and
surprise fellow players)? ;)

~|_.

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by Douglas Newlands
^^^^^
Yes he often is but how did you know???
No bottle of decent red is safe in his presence

Apology for TB configured for polish newsgroups.
As my English is "as is"... could you be more specific
and explain your statement a bit? In return I offer some consultations
in Polish, esp. pronunciation (have you ever wanted
to say properly and easily Pszczoła or Skrzypczak and
surprise fellow players)? ;)
~|_.

jen dobri!

"player" is an old friend and sometime partner who, like me, enjoys a
red wine so this was a humorous aside based on the English colloquialism
"pished" ("pissed" in American) meaning drunk.
I actually stayed in Konin for 3 months in 1997 relying on my high
school Russian and a phrase book to speak Polish but the initial,
probably misspelt, greeting is about all that remains.
I remember playing against Gawrys and he kindly complimented me on my
pronounciation of Wilkosz :) and I do know how to say "pepsi cola"
although I might sprain my tongue with the second name!

Douglas,
Tasmania

[~|_ukasz]

Post by Douglas Newlands

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by Douglas Newlands
^^^^^
Yes he often is but how did you know???
No bottle of decent red is safe in his presence

Apology for TB configured for polish newsgroups.
As my English is "as is"... could you be more specific
and explain your statement a bit? In return I offer some consultations
in Polish, esp. pronunciation (have you ever wanted
to say properly and easily Pszczoła or Skrzypczak and
surprise fellow players)? ;)
~|_.

jen dobri!
"player" is an old friend and sometime partner who, like me, enjoys a
red wine so this was a humorous aside based on the English colloquialism
"pished" ("pissed" in American) meaning drunk.

Thanks.

Post by Douglas Newlands
I actually stayed in Konin for 3 months in 1997 relying on my high
school Russian and a phrase book to speak Polish but the initial,
probably misspelt, greeting is about all that remains.
I remember playing against Gawrys and he kindly complimented me on my
pronounciation of Wilkosz :) and I do know how to say "pepsi cola"

Wow!

Post by Douglas Newlands
although I might sprain my tongue with the second name!

S - easy
krz - like "luXurious"
yp - like hYPnosis (British)
cz = tsch/tch
ak - like BarACK


~|_ukasz

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H 1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+ 1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass 2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit. However most of my partners do not know it. The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC. I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system. Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes. I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

Tell me, which do you prefer as a response to 1C?

2D 5D 10+ HCP or 12+ HCP

[~|_ukasz]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Player

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by rhm
According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse
So can you explain what your Polish Club responses are or refer me to
an online English reference?
Thanks
Rainer Herrmann

As far as I know there are no online English references for Polish
Club. It is a folk system without many of the familiar conventions.
I like to play WJ2000 which does have a very nice English reference
but my partners who claim to play WJ200 rarely know the seldom-seen
bids. Lucas probably mistyped, 3D and 3C are natural bids showing
that suit.
In that auction
1C Pass 1D 1H 1C 12-14 bal, 5C 15-17, 18+ 1D 0-7 HCP
2S 4H 5C Pass 2S shows the strong 18+ club.
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pat, this is totally incorrect. Polish Club is documented on many
sites. Look up Daniel Neill's system web site for many different
versions. Get hold of the book by Matula. Calling it a "fplk system"
is akin to calling 2/1 Buller.

In self-defense allow me to note that I have had several Poles tell me
that Polish Club is an obsolete system that preceded WJ and that they
are not the same.

LOL.
There is nothing like "polish club" in Poland, everything with 1C not
promising 2 clubs is called "WJ" at least for last 20 years.
Some people (including me) play NS "Nasz System" ("Our system") that
is sometimes called

Post by p***@gmail.com
I have memorized Neill's translation of Jassem's WJ2000 book, which I
liked quite a bit. However most of my partners do not know it. The
WJ I encounter most often is similar to BBO SAYC. I would also call
BBO SAYC a folk system, because it is a simplified version of SAYC
recommended by no authority.
Not only that, WJ means "common system" and I believe it evolved on
its own, so that is another reason I call it a folk system. Sometimes
there are polls by Polish bridge magazines as to what are the most
common interpretations of various bids, and a standard is produced
from the bids with the most votes. I know that there is a 1998
standard that I would like to see but I've never found it in
English.

It's simpler version of WJ2000, probably similar to "folk WJ2000".

Post by p***@gmail.com
Jassem did do some polling for his WJ2000 book, but he also introduced
elements like a relay that I have never seen anyone play, so WJ2000 is
not a folk system.

WJ2005 is much more worse if you consider strange gadgets.
There are also some other modern WJs but not so common.
Jassem took many ideas from NS.
NS "Nasz System" ("Our System") is sometimes inaccurately called Polish
Club. Inaccurately because 1C is 2+ (but 1D/1C is WJ2000-like), 2/1 gf
except suit rebid, semi forcing 1NT, 2C is GF, 1x is to GF, ...
Originally it was invented by Lesniewski-Przybora, Pszczola-Kwiecien
played it.
Unfortunately I cannot find any online English references to it now.
~|_.

Tell me, which do you prefer as a response to 1C?
2D 5D 10+ HCP or 12+ HCP

I play GF like most of Poles do.
The 10-11 hand is covered by 1D.

I even don't know where 2D 10+ comes from (if we consider only NS/WJ) :)

~|_.

[~|_ukasz]

Post by Player
By the way do you realise that ~|_ukasz, (Slawinski), is one of the
greatest bidding theorists in the world today? I guess not

Maybe Slawinski is one of the greatest bidding theorists in the world
today, but definetely he is just "Lukasz" ("Łukasz"), not "~|_ukasz" (me).

~|_.

[~|_ukasz]

Post by rhm

Post by ~|_ukasz

Post by p***@gmail.com
S 93
H 62
D 92
C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial.

Just the opposite, 3D (game try with good suit) is the correct bid in
Polish Club. He just ddin't know the system.
~|_ukasz
--
answer? remove "niespamic" & "_" pls

According to WJ2005 and WJ2000 3C and 3D show 9-11 HCP and a good six
card suit.
I would not mind a 3C response (though it a it a bit on the aggressive
side but what do you mean by a 3D respinse

Sorry, I meant 3C.


~|_.

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by p***@gmail.com
This wild auction begins with a weak/strong 1C opening with a 1D
denial (7-HCP). Many Polish Club defenders will tend to bid passively
and pass the 1D until they find out whether the club is weak or strong
but I'm convinced that the better course is to get in as early and
cheaply as possible.
[Dealer "N"]
[Vulnerable "EW"]
[Result "7"]
{
S AKQJ42
H Q3
D AQJ8
C 9
S T876 +-------+ S 5
H AT984 | N | H KJ75
D 4 | W E | D KT7653
C K54 | S | C T8
+-------+
S 93
H 62
D 92
C AQJ7632
[Auction "N"]
1C Pass 1D 1H
2S 4H 5C Pass
Pass X Pass Pass
Pass
I think just about every will think that South has misbid by following
the system too closely with that 1D denial. He allows West to get in
with a 1H overcall. North's spades are so good he would probably be
better off with a stronger 3S. East with shortness in spades bids
with daring even though vulnerable, but bidding 3H is worse than
futile so it is 4H or nothing. South bids wrongly again with 5C -- 4S
or maybe pass is a better choice -- and the result is a disaster. -800
for -13 IMPs. A lucky result for EW.
[Play "E"]
S5 S3 S6 SA
CT CJ CK C9
C8 S9 ST SK
H5 H2 HA H3
DK D2 D4 DJ
D3 D9 C4 D8
HK H6 HT HQ
HJ C2 H4 S2
D5 CA C5 S4

I think WJ would be improved by having opening 1M bids be more Western
style, wider ranging. Then the strong 1C bid would be even less
frequent than it is now and there would not be much to worry about
with routine pre-emption.

Another clever idea is to make the opener of 1D forcing with a 2NT
denial. I thought that was crazy when a pickup partner sprang that on
me without discussion, but it might work. It seems difficult to
penalize effectively.

Another idea is to abolish all game invitations -- they make sense in
rubber bridge but in duplicate they seem of marginal value -- and have
what were formerly game invitation be slam invitations.