Flexibility in Keycard Blackwood -- how bad are these ideas?

[s***@gmail.com]

While musing about Keycard Blackwood, I had three ideas for "improving" it. I hope for comments. Please go gently on me if the best response is "You're an ignorant baboon!"

On an auction like 1H - 2C (or 3C) - 2H (or 3H) - 4NT, responder counts Aces and Key King and bids 5H with 2, or 5S with 2 keycards AND the Spade Queen.

But what about the Club King? It's most probably also a very valuable card on this auction, no?

(1) Should the responder to Blackwood be allowed to count Club King as the fifth key card instead of Heart King on an auction like this? (To reduce risk of confusion, let's say only one King can be counted -- with one Ace and BOTH key Kings, the response is "two Key Cards" not "three.")

On the above auction, opener has implied (though not guaranteed)
six hearts. Responder may have weak support (e.g. Ax) and need you to have spade Queen to hope for slam. Then you bid 5S instead of 5H.

(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or seven cards when you've suggested five.

(3) [This final proposal I feel less strongly about.] If we agree that Kxxxxxx can be treated as KQxxx when answering Blackwood, what about KJTxxx? (Or KJTxxxx when six hearts have been shown?) If "two extra trumps" can be treated as Queen for Blackwood response, what about 1 extra trump, when the suit has Jack and Ten?

Donning asbestos suit ...

[Lorne]

Post by s***@gmail.com
While musing about Keycard Blackwood, I had three ideas for "improving" it. I hope for comments. Please go gently on me if the best response is "You're an ignorant baboon!"
On an auction like 1H - 2C (or 3C) - 2H (or 3H) - 4NT, responder counts Aces and Key King and bids 5H with 2, or 5S with 2 keycards AND the Spade Queen.
But what about the Club King? It's most probably also a very valuable card on this auction, no?
(1) Should the responder to Blackwood be allowed to count Club King as the fifth key card instead of Heart King on an auction like this? (To reduce risk of confusion, let's say only one King can be counted -- with one Ace and BOTH key Kings, the response is "two Key Cards" not "three.")
On the above auction, opener has implied (though not guaranteed)
six hearts. Responder may have weak support (e.g. Ax) and need you to have spade Queen to hope for slam. Then you bid 5S instead of 5H.
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or seven cards when you've suggested five.
(3) [This final proposal I feel less strongly about.] If we agree that Kxxxxxx can be treated as KQxxx when answering Blackwood, what about KJTxxx? (Or KJTxxxx when six hearts have been shown?) If "two extra trumps" can be treated as Queen for Blackwood response, what about 1 extra trump, when the suit has Jack and Ten?
Donning asbestos suit ...

...

If you are interested in a comprehensive control asking system look up
spiral scan blackwood. Only use it if youy intend to put in plenty of
effort with a regular partner however. It covers your point about
controls in other suits that have been bid and also lets you ask about
Kings or Queens in specific suits.

[Barry Margolin]

Post by s***@gmail.com
While musing about Keycard Blackwood, I had three ideas for "improving" it.
I hope for comments. Please go gently on me if the best response is "You're
an ignorant baboon!"
On an auction like 1H - 2C (or 3C) - 2H (or 3H) - 4NT, responder counts Aces
and Key King and bids 5H with 2, or 5S with 2 keycards AND the Spade Queen.
But what about the Club King? It's most probably also a very valuable card
on this auction, no?
(1) Should the responder to Blackwood be allowed to count Club King as the
fifth key card instead of Heart King on an auction like this? (To reduce
risk of confusion, let's say only one King can be counted -- with one Ace and
BOTH key Kings, the response is "two Key Cards" not "three.")

...

Many expert partnerships play 6-keycard Blackwood when two suits have
been bid. I don't know the exact criteria they use to know when it's on,
but this isn't a new idea.

Post by s***@gmail.com
On the above auction, opener has implied (though not guaranteed)
six hearts. Responder may have weak support (e.g. Ax) and need you to have
spade Queen to hope for slam. Then you bid 5S instead of 5H.
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two
extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding
to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your
extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or
seven cards when you've suggested five.

...

It's very standard to treat a known 10-card fit as having the queen.
Assuming you have the Ace and King, the only time a missing queen is a
problem is if the suit breaks 3-0 the wrong way.

Post by s***@gmail.com
(3) [This final proposal I feel less strongly about.] If we agree that
Kxxxxxx can be treated as KQxxx when answering Blackwood, what about KJTxxx?
(Or KJTxxxx when six hearts have been shown?) If "two extra trumps" can be
treated as Queen for Blackwood response, what about 1 extra trump, when the
suit has Jack and Ten?

No. If you might have to take a finesse, and guess which way, to pick up
the queen, you can't pretend you have it.

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by s***@gmail.com
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two
extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding
to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your
extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or
seven cards when you've suggested five.

It's very standard to treat a known 10-card fit as having the queen.
Assuming you have the Ace and King, the only time a missing queen is a
problem is if the suit breaks 3-0 the wrong way.

...

I did this playing with my wife without prediscussion, and I can attest
that's not the only problem. She was looking at the Q, so "knew" I
couldn't answer 5S, which was too high.

Eddie

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Eddie Grove

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by s***@gmail.com
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two
extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding
to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your
extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or
seven cards when you've suggested five.

It's very standard to treat a known 10-card fit as having the queen.
Assuming you have the Ace and King, the only time a missing queen is a
problem is if the suit breaks 3-0 the wrong way.

I did this playing with my wife without prediscussion, and I can attest
that's not the only problem. She was looking at the Q, so "knew" I
couldn't answer 5S, which was too high.

...

If you end up too high because your fit is too good, there's a good
chance that Blackwood wasn't the right tool to check for slam.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by Eddie Grove

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by s***@gmail.com
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two
extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding
to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your
extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or
seven cards when you've suggested five.

It's very standard to treat a known 10-card fit as having the queen.
Assuming you have the Ace and King, the only time a missing queen is a
problem is if the suit breaks 3-0 the wrong way.

I did this playing with my wife without prediscussion, and I can attest
that's not the only problem. She was looking at the Q, so "knew" I
couldn't answer 5S, which was too high.

If you end up too high because your fit is too good, there's a good
chance that Blackwood wasn't the right tool to check for slam.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

...

But it must be rare for a hand lacking the trump queen to underwrite the 5-level, or even to be sure that the queen-less suit is the best strain to play.

But blackwood fans don't care about any of that.

Carl

[jogs]

Post by s***@gmail.com
While musing about Keycard Blackwood, I had three ideas for "improving" it. I hope for comments. Please go gently on me if the best response is "You're an ignorant baboon!"
On an auction like 1H - 2C (or 3C) - 2H (or 3H) - 4NT, responder counts Aces and Key King and bids 5H with 2, or 5S with 2 keycards AND the Spade Queen.
But what about the Club King? It's most probably also a very valuable card on this auction, no?
(1) Should the responder to Blackwood be allowed to count Club King as the fifth key card instead of Heart King on an auction like this? (To reduce risk of confusion, let's say only one King can be counted -- with one Ace and BOTH key Kings, the response is "two Key Cards" not "three.")
On the above auction, opener has implied (though not guaranteed)
six hearts. Responder may have weak support (e.g. Ax) and need you to have spade Queen to hope for slam. Then you bid 5S instead of 5H.
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or seven cards when you've suggested five.
(3) [This final proposal I feel less strongly about.] If we agree that Kxxxxxx can be treated as KQxxx when answering Blackwood, what about KJTxxx? (Or KJTxxxx when six hearts have been shown?) If "two extra trumps" can be treated as Queen for Blackwood response, what about 1 extra trump, when the suit has Jack and Ten?
Donning asbestos suit ...

...

I hate 4NT as blackwood. Why are we wasting space? How often have you gone 5M-1?

1S - 3S
3NT

Why can't this be ace asking?

[Dave Flower]

Post by jogs

Post by s***@gmail.com
While musing about Keycard Blackwood, I had three ideas for "improving" it. I hope for comments. Please go gently on me if the best response is "You're an ignorant baboon!"
On an auction like 1H - 2C (or 3C) - 2H (or 3H) - 4NT, responder counts Aces and Key King and bids 5H with 2, or 5S with 2 keycards AND the Spade Queen.
But what about the Club King? It's most probably also a very valuable card on this auction, no?
(1) Should the responder to Blackwood be allowed to count Club King as the fifth key card instead of Heart King on an auction like this? (To reduce risk of confusion, let's say only one King can be counted -- with one Ace and BOTH key Kings, the response is "two Key Cards" not "three.")
On the above auction, opener has implied (though not guaranteed)
six hearts. Responder may have weak support (e.g. Ax) and need you to have spade Queen to hope for slam. Then you bid 5S instead of 5H.
(2) But what if you have Kxxxxxxx -- eight hearts instead of six? The two extra hearts make up for the lack of the Queen, right? So, when responding to keycard Blackwood, undisclosed length can substitute for the Queen if your extra length is at least two -- eight cards when you've suggested six, or seven cards when you've suggested five.
(3) [This final proposal I feel less strongly about.] If we agree that Kxxxxxx can be treated as KQxxx when answering Blackwood, what about KJTxxx? (Or KJTxxxx when six hearts have been shown?) If "two extra trumps" can be treated as Queen for Blackwood response, what about 1 extra trump, when the suit has Jack and Ten?
Donning asbestos suit ...

I hate 4NT as blackwood. Why are we wasting space? How often have you gone 5M-1?
1S - 3S
3NT
Why can't this be ace asking?

...

Of course it can be ace asking - it is known as Baby Blackwood.

However, using 3NT doesn't work on sequences like:

1S 2C
2D 4S ...

Dave Flowr

[Player]

You rarely need it in this sequnce because this is a picture bid.

[Lorne]

Post by jogs
I hate 4NT as blackwood. Why are we wasting space? How often have you gone 5M-1?
1S - 3S
3NT
Why can't this be ace asking?

If you jump to 4N from below 3N and then go off at the 5 level then 4N
was an error.

Also 3N is much more useful as asking whether the hand is slam suitable
or not - you can then stop in 4S if it is an 11 count of mainly Q's and
J's but try blackwood if you get an encouraging response suggesting A's
and K's.

[Travis Crump]

Post by Lorne

Post by jogs
I hate 4NT as blackwood. Why are we wasting space? How often have you gone 5M-1?
1S - 3S
3NT
Why can't this be ace asking?

If you jump to 4N from below 3N and then go off at the 5 level then 4N
was an error.

This is a slight exaggeration. It is always possible for the opponents
to get a ruff on very bad breaks, or perhaps trump are 5-0 with someone
having T98xx to go with the two losers you were expecting when you
stopped. You should minimize the number of times you bid keycard without
the requisite keycards, but, well, that is what it is there for. Of
course that doesn't mean I think using 3N as keycard is worthwhile.

Post by Lorne
Also 3N is much more useful as asking whether the hand is slam suitable
or not - you can then stop in 4S if it is an 11 count of mainly Q's and
J's but try blackwood if you get an encouraging response suggesting A's
and K's.

[Lorne]

Post by Travis Crump

Post by Lorne

Post by jogs
I hate 4NT as blackwood. Why are we wasting space? How often have you gone 5M-1?
1S - 3S
3NT
Why can't this be ace asking?

If you jump to 4N from below 3N and then go off at the 5 level then 4N
was an error.

This is a slight exaggeration. It is always possible for the opponents
to get a ruff on very bad breaks, or perhaps trump are 5-0 with someone
having T98xx to go with the two losers you were expecting when you
stopped. You should minimize the number of times you bid keycard without
the requisite keycards, but, well, that is what it is there for. Of
course that doesn't mean I think using 3N as keycard is worthwhile.

...

True but I was replying to the suggestion that 3N should be blackwood
and you will often be too high if you bid sensibly with whatever bid is
blackwood and run into very unlucky breaks.

[Player]

Ever heard of Serious 3nt?

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by Player
Ever heard of Serious 3nt?

I'm frivolous personally!

doug