Discussion:
missed slam
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.co.uk
2018-06-16 18:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Cross IMP pairs, all vuln:

North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84

N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP

After a club lead I made 13 tricks.

Partner held:

A83
AKT4
AKT9
93

How should this have been bid?
Co Wiersma
2018-06-17 00:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
Seems to me that both North and South have some extra
That with the limited bidding space due to the pre=emp
makes the slambidding hard

South could have bid 4S as a slamtry
and maybe even North could have started with 3S as showing strength


Co Wiersma
ais523
2018-06-17 16:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
Some people would have opened North's hand, but that seems overly
aggressive unless there's a conventional bid that shows it (some people
play 2H to show that sort of hand, but that's rare). So the initial
pass seems reasonable.

Most actions you can take over a weak two would typically show around 15
points or so (maybe a bit weaker with a good takeout shape). So South
has extras for the takeout double, but probably not by enough to show a
ridiculously strong hand (which is normally done by making some random
forcing bid that doesn't fit their hand, and then pulling the partner's
response into a bid that does, to show extra strength). I can thus buy
double has being the best bid here for South; assuming no relevant
conventions and that 3S (whatever its meaning) requires more points on
this shape, the only other bids worth considering are 2NT and 3NT, and
South has only a single stop, probably not enough.

That means that North will want to jump with their response on maybe
about 10 points, adjusted for how good the fit with South is. North's
hand is maybe worth about 12-13 upon hearing that South has hearts (it
was almost openable as it was), so 4H is a slight underbid, but in
the absence of relevant conventions there may not be any other bids
available. In that case, South probably has to pass here.

It looks like we're going to need a convention of some sort. One thing
that would help a lot here, and is a commonly agreed convention, would
be for a bid of 3S by North over South's takeout double to be
invitational in some unspecified way (to be clarified by future
bidding). South would initially interpret it as invitational to 3NT (as
any other interpretation would risk going beyond 3NT) – and would bid
3NT due to the Ace of Spades – but North would follow up with 4H to
show that it was actually a slam invite in hearts. South is
substantially stronger than promised (and hearts is just about the
best suit that North could have offered), so is likely to continue
with whatever control-asking convention the partnership has available.

An example bidding sequence for this:

Pass, (2S), X; 2S = weak
3S, 3NT; 3S = unspecified invite; 3NT = Spade stop
4H, 6H 4H = slam invite in Hearts; 6H = signoff

It's possible for South to mess around with Blackwood and the like over
the slam invite, but AFAICT South's going to bid 6 even if North has no
keycards (as that would then necessarily be compensated for by
solidity elsewhere), and you need a pretty advanced system to be able to
risk 7 here (the partnership probably has somewhere around the
equivalent of 32 adjusted points on this bidding sequence, which is
not normally enough for a grand slam).
--
ais523
Douglas Newlands
2018-06-18 01:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
If you double and partner makes a weak 3C bid (either directly
or after Lebensohl whichever is to your taste), how are you going
to rebid this hand?
Are you rebidding 3NT? While you are upper range for a 2NT overcall,
you're not really great for X then 3N.
Maybe 2N is a good start with 3D transfer to hearts and 3S showing
great heart support and a spade control. Responder can cue 4C, then 4D
then somebody has got to make a decision. It looks like it has to be
responder, even though we would prefer otherwise,simply because he
can see the source of tricks (clubs) sp RKC-5C(1-4 and clearly 4), 5NT
showing all keys and asking for side kings, 6D = KD but no KC so easy
to avoid 7.
I'd certainly be pleased to be there but if both partners make a slam
try, I think you should get there.

doug
Lorne
2018-06-18 22:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
4H must show some values and playing strength (especially if playing
Lebensohl) so it is difficult to see how the 5 level is at risk given
the S hand. I think I would continue with 4S as a cue with slam
interest and just bid the slam once partner shows interest with 5C.
ais523
2018-06-19 15:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorne
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
4H must show some values and playing strength (especially if playing
Lebensohl) so it is difficult to see how the 5 level is at risk given
the S hand. I think I would continue with 4S as a cue with slam
interest and just bid the slam once partner shows interest with 5C.
South has only about three points more than they've shown (a takeout
double of a weak two bid normally shows something around 15 points).
3H in response to a takeout double of 2S is normally a signoff (for
all your partner knows you have nothing), so in the absence of
relevant conventions, North would bid 4H on any hand that wants to
attempt game. At IMPs, that might be a fairly weak hand (I might risk
it on just 7 or 8 HCP with a fairly flat hand).

I agree with you that if North has two different paths to 3H (a
constructive path and a signoff), then 4H must be rather stronger by
comparison. I think it's more common to play two different paths to 4H,
though. (Of course, if you're playing Lebensohl in this situation, you
actually have two paths to 3H (directly and via 2NT) and /four/ paths
to 4H (directly, via 2NT, via 3S, and via both 2NT and 3S). I doubt
anyone's assigned different meanings to all six of these bids, although
2NT...3S strikes me as best used to tell your partner that you think the
opponents are psyching, and thus 2NT...3S...4H should show both majors.)
--
ais523
KWSchneider
2018-07-20 18:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk
North
T2
Q9763
3
AQJ84
N E S W
P
P 2S X P
4H AP
After a club lead I made 13 tricks.
A83
AKT4
AKT9
93
How should this have been bid?
This is a vision problem. Partner has doubled a 2S bid in the direct seat - after your opening pass. I expect a minimum of 15hcp (out of the missing 21hcp) in the unbid suits. I would start with 3S - and if partner bids 3N (weakest response with 1.5 stoppers in spades), I would pass. As partner is much stronger than the double initially promised, and slam is possible on a fit, partner should bid 4H. Keycard would then find the slam.
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