when you can't bid 2C or 2D because it's Drury

[dfm]

As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?

Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?

If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

[[e-mail]]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

To say that 1NT is is non-forcing by a passed hand is not to say that opener will strain to pass.

Opener will certainly not pass with 14 hcp or with fairly good 13.

So what is the problem?

Carl

[[e-mail]]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

I forgot to say in addition: Opener will not pass with a 4-card minor unless the opening was purely to get the lead.

Carl

[Tom]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open,
so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF
with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would
be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What
do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with
only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing,
even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

Expert style these days is to play 1N semi-forcing in all seats, where
opener can pass with a poor opening. Those playing modified Bergen use
1M - 3D to show a 3 card 11+-12 limit raise which can be used in most
other systems also. The bidding over the 1N response then shows either
a sound opening bid or a 4 card second suit which makes bidding easier
for reponder. The style helps eliminate the embassment of going down on
a invitational hand.

Tom

[Lorne]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

There is no such thing as a hand that can't open but wants to force to
game after partner opens their singleton so you just bid 1N. It still
shows up to 11 pts just as it would if partner was dealer.

[Player]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

Doesn't Drury guarantee a fit anyway? So with a stiff spade why would you even want to bid a Drury 2C?

[Barry Margolin]

Post by Player

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you
pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a
forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with
three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only
four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even
by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

Doesn't Drury guarantee a fit anyway? So with a stiff spade why would you
even want to bid a Drury 2C?

He doesn't, that's the problem. He'd like to show his minor naturally,
but it would be interpreted as a good raise.

In one of my partnerships, where we only use 2C as Drury, we use a 2NT
response to show an intermediate hand with clubs (3C would be a weak
jump shift). I suppose if you're playing 2-way Drury, you could start
with 2NT for either minor, and opener's 3C is pass/correct (but if he
has extras he has to bid something else).

[ais523]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open,
so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF
with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would
be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What
do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with
only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing,
even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

I don't see how you can legitimately have a game force here if you
didn't open. There's a reasonable chance that you don't have a fit in
any suit, and you can't have enough points to make game through weight
of points if your opening would be sub-minimum and your partner's is a
sub-minum opening too. (Quite possibly the strength is split evenly
between your side and the opponent's and /any/ contract will be a
stretch to make.)

So 1NT seems like a fairly good bid to make. Your partner can pass it,
but if they do, there's quite a chance that 1NT will be the best
contract anyway. They're likely to try to find a reply if their hand is
better than terrible. (A good way to think about it is that 1NT should
be forcing on a partner who thinks they have a chance for game opposite
a passed hand, so if 1NT is passed, it's because your partner thinks
there's no chance at game, in full knowledge of how much strength you
could potentially have. And isn't notrumps the most likely of the five
strains to do well here?)

[[e-mail]]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

On reflection, the issue here is the word non-forcing.

Only in the late 80s or early 90s, non-ACBL internationalists realized that when Americans used "non-forcing" in an explanation of a bid, they meant something more negative than European and Asians would.

Clearly, a passed hand 1NT cannot mean "please pass unless game is possible." Why would anyone think it did? Because of the secret American cipher "non-forcing = sign-off."

Carl

[Barry Margolin]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you
pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a
forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with
three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only
four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even
by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

On reflection, the issue here is the word non-forcing.
Only in the late 80s or early 90s, non-ACBL internationalists realized that
when Americans used "non-forcing" in an explanation of a bid, they meant
something more negative than European and Asians would.
Clearly, a passed hand 1NT cannot mean "please pass unless game is possible."
Why would anyone think it did? Because of the secret American cipher
"non-forcing = sign-off."

When partner's range is limited, a non-forcing bid is also generally a
sign-off -- this used to be called a "bar bid" (because partner is
barred from bidding again). This goes along with the captaincy
principle: when one player has limited his hand, partner becomes captain
and decides whether to sign off, invite, or bid game. Sign-offs and
invitations are both non-forcing.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Barry Margolin

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you
pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a
forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with
three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only
four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even
by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

On reflection, the issue here is the word non-forcing.
Only in the late 80s or early 90s, non-ACBL internationalists realized that
when Americans used "non-forcing" in an explanation of a bid, they meant
something more negative than European and Asians would.
Clearly, a passed hand 1NT cannot mean "please pass unless game is possible."
Why would anyone think it did? Because of the secret American cipher
"non-forcing = sign-off."

When partner's range is limited, a non-forcing bid is also generally a
sign-off -- this used to be called a "bar bid" (because partner is
barred from bidding again). This goes along with the captaincy
principle: when one player has limited his hand, partner becomes captain
and decides whether to sign off, invite, or bid game. Sign-offs and
invitations are both non-forcing.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

When partner's range is limited AND SHORT. That's the point. Too many people leave the qualifier out.

Carl

[rhm]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

A 1NT response to an opening bid does not promise a balanced hand or even a hand suitable for notrumps.
The 1NT response, whether forcing or not, simply says that responder has no other bid available.
This is one disadvantage of playing two-way druri. For little additional gain you loose another natural bid.
Opener will pass 1NT only if it is agreed to be not forcing and opener has neither extra in distribution or strength.
Sometimes 1NT will not be the right contract, but this is often the case when a partnership has not enough strength to explore all possible strains.
More often than not 1NT will be a good contract. That's why many have given up 1NT forcing.

[[e-mail]]

Post by rhm

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

A 1NT response to an opening bid does not promise a balanced hand or even a hand suitable for notrumps.
The 1NT response, whether forcing or not, simply says that responder has no other bid available.
This is one disadvantage of playing two-way druri. For little additional gain you loose another natural bid.
Opener will pass 1NT only if it is agreed to be not forcing and opener has neither extra in distribution or strength.
Sometimes 1NT will not be the right contract, but this is often the case when a partnership has not enough strength to explore all possible strains.
More often than not 1NT will be a good contract. That's why many have given up 1NT forcing.

The validity of your statement depends on where "extra" begins. If it begins just above the normal bare minimum for the opening bid, it is correct. If it begins at the top of the range of "minimum openings," I strongly disagree.

Carl

[rhm]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by rhm

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

A 1NT response to an opening bid does not promise a balanced hand or even a hand suitable for notrumps.
The 1NT response, whether forcing or not, simply says that responder has no other bid available.
This is one disadvantage of playing two-way druri. For little additional gain you loose another natural bid.
Opener will pass 1NT only if it is agreed to be not forcing and opener has neither extra in distribution or strength.
Sometimes 1NT will not be the right contract, but this is often the case when a partnership has not enough strength to explore all possible strains.
More often than not 1NT will be a good contract. That's why many have given up 1NT forcing.

The validity of your statement depends on where "extra" begins. If it begins just above the normal bare minimum for the opening bid, it is correct. If it begins at the top of the range of "minimum openings," I strongly disagree.
Carl

I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.
If I have a good 14 HCP I might have upgraded the hand and open 1NT
With any 5431 (or more distributional hand) I will not pass
I might pass with 5422 (4 card minor) if I have a poor 13 HCP or less.

[ais523]

Post by rhm
I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.

Oh, I think I see the problem here.

The issue is that in a strong notrumps system, 1S basically shows three
possible hand types: 12-14 balanced with spades; single-suited with
spades; two-suited with spades and another.

It's easy enough to handle the latter two hand types after 1S, 1NT
(regardless of which seat you opened in); you bid 2S or the second suit
respectively. But what are you meant to do with the 12-14 balanced hand?
14 plus 11 is 25 which is normally enough for game, so you'd ideally
want to bid on over a 1NT that could potentially show 11 points and a
misfit. But in the scenario in this thread (pass, 1S; 1NT), the top end
of 1NT's range is 11 points (possibly even 12 depending on your opening
style), so 14 points balanced becomes an unbiddable hand type. You don't
want to have to bid 2NT and leave your partner wondering whether you
have 14 or 18, as then a partner on 9 or so points would have to guess
how to follow up.

I actually consider this to be one of the largest theoretical issues
with strong notrumps systems (that 12-14 balanced hands tend to not
have enough bidding space below 1NT). In a weak notrumps system,
there's no problem because the "I couldn't open 1NT" range is
contiguous, so you could happily bid 2NT with your balanced 15 (the
weakest hand on which this problem could occur). Alternatively, you
could adjust a strong notrumps range to solve the problem; neither
14-16 nor 15-18 will have a problem finding a rebid (the former can
pass with any hand below the notrumps range; the latter can bid 3NT
with any hand above it, so 2NT could be reserved for the 14-point
hands).

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by rhm
I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.

Oh, I think I see the problem here.
The issue is that in a strong notrumps system, 1S basically shows three
possible hand types: 12-14 balanced with spades; single-suited with
spades; two-suited with spades and another.
It's easy enough to handle the latter two hand types after 1S, 1NT
(regardless of which seat you opened in); you bid 2S or the second suit
respectively. But what are you meant to do with the 12-14 balanced hand?
14 plus 11 is 25 which is normally enough for game, so you'd ideally
want to bid on over a 1NT that could potentially show 11 points and a
misfit. But in the scenario in this thread (pass, 1S; 1NT), the top end
of 1NT's range is 11 points (possibly even 12 depending on your opening
style), so 14 points balanced becomes an unbiddable hand type. You don't
want to have to bid 2NT and leave your partner wondering whether you
have 14 or 18, as then a partner on 9 or so points would have to guess
how to follow up.
I actually consider this to be one of the largest theoretical issues
with strong notrumps systems (that 12-14 balanced hands tend to not
have enough bidding space below 1NT). In a weak notrumps system,
there's no problem because the "I couldn't open 1NT" range is
contiguous, so you could happily bid 2NT with your balanced 15 (the
weakest hand on which this problem could occur). Alternatively, you
could adjust a strong notrumps range to solve the problem; neither
14-16 nor 15-18 will have a problem finding a rebid (the former can
pass with any hand below the notrumps range; the latter can bid 3NT
with any hand above it, so 2NT could be reserved for the 14-point
hands).
--
ais523

I really really do not follow.

With 5332 14, you bid 3-card minor. What is the problem?

Carl

[[e-mail]]

Post by ais523

Post by rhm
I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.

Oh, I think I see the problem here.
The issue is that in a strong notrumps system, 1S basically shows three
possible hand types: 12-14 balanced with spades; single-suited with
spades; two-suited with spades and another.
It's easy enough to handle the latter two hand types after 1S, 1NT
(regardless of which seat you opened in); you bid 2S or the second suit
respectively. But what are you meant to do with the 12-14 balanced hand?
14 plus 11 is 25 which is normally enough for game, so you'd ideally
want to bid on over a 1NT that could potentially show 11 points and a
misfit. But in the scenario in this thread (pass, 1S; 1NT), the top end
of 1NT's range is 11 points (possibly even 12 depending on your opening
style), so 14 points balanced becomes an unbiddable hand type. You don't
want to have to bid 2NT and leave your partner wondering whether you
have 14 or 18, as then a partner on 9 or so points would have to guess
how to follow up.
I actually consider this to be one of the largest theoretical issues
with strong notrumps systems (that 12-14 balanced hands tend to not
have enough bidding space below 1NT). In a weak notrumps system,
there's no problem because the "I couldn't open 1NT" range is
contiguous, so you could happily bid 2NT with your balanced 15 (the
weakest hand on which this problem could occur). Alternatively, you
could adjust a strong notrumps range to solve the problem; neither
14-16 nor 15-18 will have a problem finding a rebid (the former can
pass with any hand below the notrumps range; the latter can bid 3NT
with any hand above it, so 2NT could be reserved for the 14-point
hands).
--
ais523

By the way, 15 + 6 = 21 , regardless of the strength of the 1NT opening.

Carl

[Douglas Newlands]

Post by ais523

Post by rhm
I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.

Oh, I think I see the problem here.
The issue is that in a strong notrumps system, 1S basically shows three
possible hand types: 12-14 balanced with spades; single-suited with
spades; two-suited with spades and another.
It's easy enough to handle the latter two hand types after 1S, 1NT
(regardless of which seat you opened in); you bid 2S or the second suit
respectively. But what are you meant to do with the 12-14 balanced hand?
14 plus 11 is 25 which is normally enough for game, so you'd ideally

Your assumption is contrary to the normal advice for a balanced hand
opposite a balanced hand (balanced includes 5332) which I can
characterise as
a) if you maximum combined count is 25, don't invite i.e. play 1NT
b) if your minimum combined count is 24, play in game i.e. play 3NT

This means you never play 2NT (silly contract anyway) but requires that
1NT openers and rebids are 3 point ranges. This protects you to some
extent from interference since 4 point 1NT ranges are a self inflicted
wound.

So the answer to your questions is that 14 opposite 11 is a clear pass.

Post by ais523
want to bid on over a 1NT that could potentially show 11 points and a
misfit. But in the scenario in this thread (pass, 1S; 1NT), the top end
of 1NT's range is 11 points (possibly even 12 depending on your opening

If you play 14-16 1NT and open all 11s then 1M-1N can show up to 11
since partner with 11-13 can pass a 1N of 5-11 comfortably.
If your 2/1 system is not FG but either promises a rebid or is F2NT, you
might respond with a 2/1 rather than bid 1NT with 11.

If you're playing 15-17 1NT and passing all balanced 11s, then 1M-1N
can up to 10. Of course if you are playing 2/1 FG, you have another problem.

Post by ais523
style), so 14 points balanced becomes an unbiddable hand type. You don't
want to have to bid 2NT and leave your partner wondering whether you
have 14 or 18, as then a partner on 9 or so points would have to guess
how to follow up.
I actually consider this to be one of the largest theoretical issues
with strong notrumps systems (that 12-14 balanced hands tend to not
have enough bidding space below 1NT). In a weak notrumps system,
there's no problem because the "I couldn't open 1NT" range is
contiguous, so you could happily bid 2NT with your balanced 15 (the

Acol players might open 1NT with 12-14, rebid 1NT with 15-16, rebid 2NT
with 17-18. This is requires 1M-1N to be 5-9 so the 15-16 hand can pass
over 1M-1N. They bid over 1M-1N only with the 17-18 hand.

Post by ais523
weakest hand on which this problem could occur). Alternatively, you
could adjust a strong notrumps range to solve the problem; neither
14-16 nor 15-18 will have a problem finding a rebid (the former can

Playing 15-18 as your 1N opener forces you to play 2NT when responder
is interested but opener is minimum. This should be avoided. There is
also another problem when they bid and your magic 2C enquiry is not
available.

doug

Post by ais523
pass with any hand below the notrumps range; the latter can bid 3NT
with any hand above it, so 2NT could be reserved for the 14-point
hands).

[rhm]

Post by ais523

Post by rhm
I do not know what you want to say.
If I play 15-17 Notrump, I will pass with 5332 and a poor 14 HCP a 1NT response.

Oh, I think I see the problem here.
The issue is that in a strong notrumps system, 1S basically shows three
possible hand types: 12-14 balanced with spades; single-suited with
spades; two-suited with spades and another.
It's easy enough to handle the latter two hand types after 1S, 1NT
(regardless of which seat you opened in); you bid 2S or the second suit
respectively. But what are you meant to do with the 12-14 balanced hand?
14 plus 11 is 25 which is normally enough for game, so you'd ideally
want to bid on over a 1NT that could potentially show 11 points and a
misfit. But in the scenario in this thread (pass, 1S; 1NT), the top end
of 1NT's range is 11 points (possibly even 12 depending on your opening
style), so 14 points balanced becomes an unbiddable hand type. You don't
want to have to bid 2NT and leave your partner wondering whether you
have 14 or 18, as then a partner on 9 or so points would have to guess
how to follow up.
I actually consider this to be one of the largest theoretical issues
with strong notrumps systems (that 12-14 balanced hands tend to not
have enough bidding space below 1NT). In a weak notrumps system,
there's no problem because the "I couldn't open 1NT" range is
contiguous, so you could happily bid 2NT with your balanced 15 (the
weakest hand on which this problem could occur). Alternatively, you
could adjust a strong notrumps range to solve the problem; neither
14-16 nor 15-18 will have a problem finding a rebid (the former can
pass with any hand below the notrumps range; the latter can bid 3NT
with any hand above it, so 2NT could be reserved for the 14-point
hands).
--
ais523

I think the problem is greatly exaggerated
Some play a 14-16 notrump, others like me, will decide before opening whether the 14 HCP balanced hand should be upgraded.
The same holds true when you have a 5 card major and 17 HCP.
You might decide the hand to be too strong for a 1NT opener.

Anyway if the bidding starts 1S--1NT you will have a combined 25 HCP if both sides hold a maximum, an unlikely occurence to start with.
With no fit in your opened 5 card suit, your chances of making game is no better than 50% on average even if you have a combined 25 HCP.
You will do as well staying out of these games, in fact you will do much better because partner ha soften less.

And what is the difference to other scenarios?
You hold an average 8 HCP and your partner opens a stong notrump?
Sensible people will not try even though they know that opposite a maximum game could make.

[p***@atero.se]

What are the relative frequencies between AKQx out and a reasonable 5-6 card minor that easily let's p to bid 3nt. Lead director bids are overrated.

Regards,
Petter

[[e-mail]]

Post by p***@atero.se
What are the relative frequencies between AKQx out and a reasonable 5-6 card minor that easily let's p to bid 3nt. Lead director bids are overrated.
Regards,
Petter

The 5-5 is useful for 3NT only if the hand has entries that can't be forced out prematurely.

A 5-5 hand with entries sounds like an opener to me.

Carl

[KWSchneider]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

Bid 1N - I'm not understanding the issue. You are a passed-hand and the 1S opening has not improved it - quite the opposite. A non-forcing 1N is perfect.

Kurt

[p***@atero.se]

Drury is hopelessly outdated. If it is correct to stop in 2M, the opponents won't let you. Natural is far better.

[[e-mail]]

Post by p***@atero.se
Drury is hopelessly outdated. If it is correct to stop in 2M, the opponents won't let you. Natural is far better.

I believe you misunderstand.

The benefit of Drury comes when you open AKQx and out and your partner is on lead. But you can't open that if you risk 1100 in 3.

So you WANT the opponents to declare.

That is, it is not for light openings, but for non-openings.

Personally, I don't play it, but that is irrelevant.

Carl

[Will in New Haven]

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

I don't see any problem with responding 1NT, not forcing or semi-forcing, with those hands. However, a hand with a six-card minor could be a problem. In my one Drury-playing partnership, we played 2D as Drury and 2C as natural because we could have opened 2D weak. It came up once that we were able to bid 2C and it worked OK. It was only one time but we didn't think 2-way Drury was a big sacrifice.

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Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing, even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

With the recent death of Eric Murray QC, it is worth remembering his connection with Doug Drury's invention.

Murray would open 3rd seat, and Drury would compete too much, going for 900 at 3 (old scoring).

After the invention, they would go only for 700 at 2.

Carl

[jonathan23]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by dfm
As dealer, you have a 1=3=5=4 hand that's a little too weak to open, so
you pass. In third seat, partner opens 1S. You are playing 2/1 GF with a
forcing 1NT, but 1NT isn't forcing by a passed hand. 2C would be Drury
with three spades. 2D would be Drury with four spades. What do you do?
Change one card so now you are 1=4=5=3. Can you bid 2H over 1S with only
four hearts? If not, what do you do?
If your suggestion is 1NT, does this mean that 1NT should be forcing,
even by a passed hand, when playing Drury?

With the recent death of Eric Murray QC, it is worth remembering his
connection with Doug Drury's invention.
Murray would open 3rd seat, and Drury would compete too much, going for
900 at 3 (old scoring).
After the invention, they would go only for 700 at 2.

The original article Eric Murray wrote for the Bridge World about Drury in the 1950s can be read on the ACBL website at:

http://www.acbl.org/learn_page/how-to-play-bridge/introduction-to-duplicate/convention-cards/commonly-used-conventions/in-their-own-words/

It is worth reading for Murray's amusing style.

He claimed in the article that it was invented to convert 3SX down six to 2SX (including the remark that the double of 2S would not be as loud, in the days of verbal bidding) down only five, which Murray called "a nice savings over the years".